I never said anything about being right or wrong I posted my OPINIONS in every post on this site. They are opinions sorry they may be wrong, poorly thought out or even downright stupid but they are opinions and I don't represent them as fact. My original question was to Johan and not you but you answered, You closed with this: 'If you want to verify somebody because they have a cool picture good for you. If you want to verify somebody without verifying good for you. If you want to dig into their verification, good for you. The purpose of this site is that everyone is going to do something different. I’m not telling you to follow my standard, because I’m definitely not going to follow someone else’s. in the end of the day I’m doing what’s right for the community and I’m doing right by trying to preserve integrity in our sport. And honestly, I don’t understand why anybody would have a problem with somebody trying to maintain the integrity of the sport.' What would we be discussing you have told me I am wrong several times on this thread and I am in complete agreement. Your response leaves no real room for discourse I just agree I view the site differently and honestly my opinions are just that. I honestly have no dog in the fight and I disagree with how both sides handled this.. Although I do admire someone spending this much time on verifying a belt. shows a certain dedication to it I just do not have. I think you are a good guy and really care about and love the sport. I have enjoyed our discourse in the past and will in the future. By the way I feel the same way about Johan. For any third parties following this is exactly why I think this is a great social experiment. In itself Belt Checker is meaningless. It is what the participants make it and honestly the only power it will have is if outsiders accept it not us. The experiment begins with things like this not when people agree and pat each other on the back. We have our vote and our opinions I find it fascinating to watch how it grows

I really would like the community to talk about who they believe is sufficient or credible enough to promote people at each rank. I feel like we have a mixture of Hometown ideology “ the way we do things” affiliation ideology, IBJJF rules, and the old-school Gracie Way. But it would be interesting to see the different viewpoints on what people consider a valid promotion.

I believe I know a person, who had BJJ brown belt but black belt in another style of jiu-jitsu. He registered for adult black belt division at IBJJF Europeans. So basically you could say nobody promoted him to black belt in BJJ at that time, but himself.

Even more evidence that IBJJF's compliance with their own standards is crap and an IBJJF certificate really isn't very good evidence by itself. Even if this particular case was a good competitor, how would they know if they don't even do good checks if a legit 2:nd degree or higher promoted him to BB? Yes, skill level IS more important than a belt. BUT there are well established standards (although not always upheld by IBJJF) which doesn't only include skills. Besides, I don't think I've ever seen anyone on Beltchecker downvote someone based on their skill level - if you upvote based on skill level, I really think you should also downvote based on skill level, even if someone very legit gave them their belt. Where do we then draw the line? Older black belts tapping to top level purple belt competitors in their prime, in age, shape and competition peaking? Or should every single verification be as we ourself evaluated the skills of someone, for promoting them? How do we then know they don't just cherry pick in the films they've uploaded? That they really got the feel too? Wasn't too welcome by the BJJ community when the Gracie Academy/University did video promotions and there are a lot of old threads on the internet discussing why that's not a good idea. What about if we see one or two videos with sloppy execution, missing details or poor choice of technique with the person demonstrating something? Would you downvote based on that, if that was your only evidence? Would you be sure the video clip was not out of context? Do you still deserve your belt if you have a bad day, where your brain isn't really cooperating? You have perhaps seen all foul language aimed at me at times for accurately pointing out that someone really is lacking evidence for it to show the IBJJF equivalent standard, which I explicitly vote (both ways) based on if the profile shows at it's current state. I have a feeling it would be much worse if someone started downvoting formally legit BB:s from well known >2:nd degree BB:s, just based on a single film clip or two. If a legit 2:nd degree or higher BB gave out clearly undeserved belts, the problem would be greater than just a single person and I hope the community would then come together on a wider scale and no longer acknowledge that persons promotions. Believe me, I too think skills are essential for each and every belt. But it's not an opinion but a fact that skills+formally correct promotion is a higher standard than just skills. If not proven otherwise, I actually trust legit 2:nd degree and higher BB:s judgement on skills for belts, although you're welcome to point out if any Beltcheckers members are clearly below the belt standards regardless of the belt being formally correctly awarded. When it all comes down to it though, why not just make sure you have the formalities in place when you claim a belt? Is it really possible to go all the way to BB without being aware of what the most widely accepted formal standards are? And is it really that much effort to talk to the appropriate people, to get everything in place? Without any lame excuses that 'I spend all my time kicking ass on the mat, so I don't have time to and am far too cool to adher to the formalities!' :-)

All good points. for me evaluating somebody’s skill doesn’t make sense. Because you’re not putting the belt on them yourself. You’re not promoting them. What you’re doing is verifying that somebody who is is able to promote, according to promotion standards,, has put a belt on them. They did that under their standards not yours. If I saw a bunch of really crappy videos, but I know that they were legitimately promoted I would still upvote them. Not because I respect their shitty technique. But because I respect the person who promoted them and respect that that person met their criteria. With no centralized BJj authority, I feel like that is the only way I can verify

Guys okay let's say the IBJJF standards are bullshit.. Kind of reminds me of what the IBJJF tried to sell about people being promoted by Globetrotters. And in the case of this thread it has been made clear that some think Checkmats standards are BS and that many team / organizations verify with the IBJJF to get competition points. I am confused are we checking to see if we BELIEVE the belt has been awarded ? Are we checking to see if the MAJOR BJJ organizations recognize it? I was under the understanding that this was a beltchecker verification site NOT a grading site. I may think someone absolutely SUCKS and his knowledge of grappling is shit but if I know he was given a Black Belt and I know it was recognized by the IBJJF the FACT is that he is a Black Belt. I am very open about not considering myself a BJJ guy. I am a sub grappler who happens to have a black belt and my version of BJJ is very different than what many people call BJJ in fact I have been told the moves I do are WRONG right until I catch someone in them. AS someone who was staunchly against the Gi Ricardo took some heat giving me the Black Belt so I started competing in the Gi to prove grappling is grappling no matter what you wear. People could easily say Ricardo gave me the Belt for organizational points but the problem is if I am competing at Black and winning at Black kind of kills the argument. I really do think we need to remember that we are verifying someone else's promotion not agreeing with it. It's funny when I first signed up for the site I tried to promote it on social media and got a lot of push back. My response was always as long as you provide substantial evidence of you promotion you will get verified reasonably easy. Unfortunately now I tell them it's a great community but the verification can be a pain in the ass but once you wade through it it's over kind unlike the assholes at the IBJJF they don't want your left nut in the process. I think my profile is an excellent example. I can not add any more pictures (site wont allow it). From pics of my 'certificate' a black belt magazine article on professional grappling I was featured in. The profile has a partial competition record with matches in pro shows, the IBJJF and NABJJF/SJJIF, video from matches and instructional. I honestly feel I provided enough information for someone to say yes or no on me being a Blackbelt. If you do a google search a bunch of stuff show up. This was someones upvote 'No pics from actual promotions, but vouched for by instructors friend Carlos Machado and a lot of evidence indicating high level.' My response 'I could send video of the promotions if it puts your mind at ease about verifying. I had thought the Certificate and IBBJF along with SJJIF Black Belt registrations more valid proof.. Thanks for verifying and let me know about where to send the video' His response 'My mind is already at ease verifying you! I'm just spreading the gospel of adding as much good evidence as is humanly possible, so newcomers see how they better do it. If someone with Carlos Machado vouching for them can make the effort, so can they :-)' This is what I mean we either believe the person is deserving of the belt or we don't. Unlike many people in the arts being questioned is meaningless to me as my belt has ONE meaning someone I respect Ricardo had faith in me to represent him as a Black Belt people can verify or accept but his opinion is the one that matters. I think as people verifying we need to remember sometimes questioning via a website can come across very differently than in a conversation. If you don't post pics and information I agree why did you even bother coming here but if you give detailed information and someone questions it that is adversarial right off the bat. WE also are part of Beltchecker and are a MINORITY in the BJJ community if you approach someone who doesn't follow beltchecker why would they bother responding in the first place as they don't know you.

For me since I started in the 90s I only understand one way of promotion.

I really do think we need to remember that we are verifying someone else's promotion not agreeing with it.

...If that regular Blackbelt wanted to promote a Blackbelt, they could do so as long as their professor agreed with it and signed off the paperwork. This was to mentor the original Blackbelt and put a set of checks and balances on his promotion mindset. After doing that, for six years, he would now be ready to promote without the guidance of his professor. This is how I base my belt verifications. Because this is the way that I was raised. I don’t know another way of promoting...

I came up through the ranks primarily under the guidance of Brazilian instructors, and this has been my experience as well. So, bringing it back to the original subject, and applying the above logic to the beltchecker profile in question, what should be done in cases such as these, where belts may have not been awarded appropriately, but everything else (time-in-grade, competition performance, etc.) seems to be in place? Can a 2nd degree bb, for example, in the case of a bb who was not promoted by a 2nd degree, 'retroactively' sign off on their promotion? Does that make sense or was it too much time traveling?

I came up through the ranks primarily under the guidance of Brazilian instructors, and this has been my experience as well. So, bringing it back to the original subject, and applying the above logic to the beltchecker profile in question, what should be done in cases such as these, where belts may have not been awarded appropriately, but everything else (time-in-grade, competition performance, etc.) seems to be in place? Can a 2nd degree bb, for example, in the case of a bb who was not promoted by a 2nd degree, 'retroactively' sign off on their promotion? Does that make sense or was it too much time traveling?

I don’t think any of this was made public in the forums. The only thing public was what was important to bring context to the promotion of the promoting instructor. Probably still not the best place for this type of information

'I didn't quite catch what your point with the verification quote was. No questioning of your degree, skills or legitimacy there, just saying that direct evidence would be preferred over indirect evidence, although the indirect evidence was convincing enough of both skills, formalities and legitimacy with lineage etc.' It was the ONLY vote that felt the need to question or comment that my profile was in any way not substantial enough. If you notice my response was typical of my nature and I offered to send you a copy. The reality is were you questioning my belt or did you just feel the need to tell me my profile was not up to your standards for a profile. There is a big difference context wise. My question to you is are YOU verifying they were awarded the belt or deciding if the deserve it? My issue with the site is more to do with we are verifying belts yet I am seeing people support down votes at times using other peoples issues that have nothing to do with belts or skill. *EDITED OUT CONTENT* Even after the Promoting instructor confirmed it is still questioned. None of this has to do with BJJ skills and don't tell me the martial arts crap , this art was built on challenging people to fights. dojo stroming and beating the crap out of people. The founders were a group of thugs who slept with anyone they could

Now let's get to important questions such as should we heel hook toddlers?

Deleted my post as there was one thing in their that I had not seen on the forums and I don't want to exacerbate the situation,, I guess at this stage we can go back to regular programming as I for one am starting to feel like we are kicking the proverbial dead horse (myself included) . Now let's get to important questions such as should we heel hook toddlers?

Considering you got my upvote, you DID meet my standards in verifying your degree. When it comes to what you put on the profile, you might have fell a little short of my highest nothing-left-to-wish-for-standards (which you could quite easily reach if you cared), but that's not really about the legitimacy of the actual degree. I quite frankly understand why you don't care to go beyond the Jonah-upvote-standard to the Jonah-nothing-left-to-wish-for-standard as I think already the first mentioned is enough for 101% of Beltchecker members to upvote you :-) The issues you mention, I agree have nothing to do with the legitimacy of degrees and I sure hope no one downvoted because of any of that. It wasn't anything I myself had any reason to investigate and it didn't change anything with how I voted. As I actually don't think that has been outed in public, I hope you're willing to edit the specifics out of your message (same goes to you, Anthony, in the quote of it). 'Dojo stroming' sounds like something we Swedes would do with our surströmming (search for it on youtube). Beware! If we do a dojo stroming, you WILL tap and no student of yours is going to want to stay in your dojo! ;-P

Even more evidence that IBJJF's compliance with their own standards is crap and an IBJJF certificate really isn't very good evidence by itself. Even if this particular case was a good competitor, how would they know if they don't even do good checks if a legit 2:nd degree or higher promoted him to BB? Yes, skill level IS more important than a belt. BUT there are well established standards (although not always upheld by IBJJF) which doesn't only include skills. Besides, I don't think I've ever seen anyone on Beltchecker downvote someone based on their skill level - if you upvote based on skill level, I really think you should also downvote based on skill level, even if someone very legit gave them their belt. Where do we then draw the line? Older black belts tapping to top level purple belt competitors in their prime, in age, shape and competition peaking? Or should every single verification be as we ourself evaluated the skills of someone, for promoting them? How do we then know they don't just cherry pick in the films they've uploaded? That they really got the feel too? Wasn't too welcome by the BJJ community when the Gracie Academy/University did video promotions and there are a lot of old threads on the internet discussing why that's not a good idea. What about if we see one or two videos with sloppy execution, missing details or poor choice of technique with the person demonstrating something? Would you downvote based on that, if that was your only evidence? Would you be sure the video clip was not out of context? Do you still deserve your belt if you have a bad day, where your brain isn't really cooperating? You have perhaps seen all foul language aimed at me at times for accurately pointing out that someone really is lacking evidence for it to show the IBJJF equivalent standard, which I explicitly vote (both ways) based on if the profile shows at it's current state. I have a feeling it would be much worse if someone started downvoting formally legit BB:s from well known >2:nd degree BB:s, just based on a single film clip or two. If a legit 2:nd degree or higher BB gave out clearly undeserved belts, the problem would be greater than just a single person and I hope the community would then come together on a wider scale and no longer acknowledge that persons promotions. Believe me, I too think skills are essential for each and every belt. But it's not an opinion but a fact that skills+formally correct promotion is a higher standard than just skills. If not proven otherwise, I actually trust legit 2:nd degree and higher BB:s judgement on skills for belts, although you're welcome to point out if any Beltcheckers members are clearly below the belt standards regardless of the belt being formally correctly awarded. When it all comes down to it though, why not just make sure you have the formalities in place when you claim a belt? Is it really possible to go all the way to BB without being aware of what the most widely accepted formal standards are? And is it really that much effort to talk to the appropriate people, to get everything in place? Without any lame excuses that 'I spend all my time kicking ass on the mat, so I don't have time to and am far too cool to adher to the formalities!' :-)

I may think someone absolutely SUCKS and his knowledge of grappling is shit but if I know he was given a Black Belt and I know it was recognized by the IBJJF the FACT is that he is a Black Belt. I am very open about not considering myself a BJJ guy. I am a sub grappler who happens to have a black belt and my version of BJJ is very different than what many people call BJJ in fact I have been told the moves I do are WRONG right until I catch someone in them.

Guys....you never be tired ?

I feel if a move works in a jiu-jitsu setting, it can be jiu-jitsu. Jiu-jitsu isn't a list of approved techniques, it's an art with many roads to same end. If I learn a takedown from a wrestler and make it work on a jiu-jitsu setting, I feel I can say it's jiu-jitsu too. I personally can't upvote someone if I doubt or see their technique isn't on level with shown belt. I feel my upvote is 'I believe this person has the skillset needed for his belt degree'.

I agree with you here. Skill is above qualifications, and IBJJF certificate isn't very good evidence. Of course, when verifying people, you generally want to see them fighting or sparring peers if possible. If someone estimates my skill when I'm doing hard sparring against adult black belt world champion, it probably doesn't reflect well on my skill, as I'm always on the losing end due to conditioning, timing, strength and probably also skill difference. if you watch closely my page, there is a competition footage of me losing a match against a purple belt last year. I lost due to referee decision (which I agree with) to a 27 year old active competitor, while I was 44 years old. He had won Dublin open previous month and won that competition's open class too. He lost our category next fight which I would say because I made him exhausted and he had 5 minutes to recover against the winner of the category. He did score points on his winner. I was the only person he couldn't get anything to work to get even an advantage. He was promoted to brown the following week. BJJ isn't just a hobby for him, as he lives on teaching and competing in jiu-jitsu, while I train 3-4 times a week, have lots of kids and a full-time office job. I prepared for that competition about 2 weeks, while he competes monthly through the year. Age and circumstances matter. Still when you watch that fight, you see how small are the openings I provided for his attacks, while I was struggling to pass his guard. Most people should recognize skill there, even though I lost. And of course I have video of me fighting and submitting people my age with opponents having several years of training. The openings they gave me aren't huge, but visible to anyone with skill. Now to tell whether I would downvote someone based on a video: probably not unless there is other evidence available too, or the skill gap between belt and video is huge. I don't vote people based on a single evidence or lack of it. I rather not vote yet and wait for better evidence. Of course this approach can be problematic too. I think in my former example case, a brown belt winning Europeans at brown, but not having a legit black belt to promote him to go there and compete at black belts is a proof that IBJJF standard can also be too restrictive. I wouldn't mind people were allowed to compete in any belt category they wish. If someone beats BJJ black belt of same size and age with BJJ rules, it's proof enough for me that they belong there even thought they are not black belts in jiu-jitsu.

I wish you could do that at Ibjjf. Josh Barnett ruined that for everyone.