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Revenge downvotes cast - you know what to do
2 year(s) ago • 36271 views • 284 replies
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
So basically you would not up vote Remco at this point as you feel there is too much water under the bridge?
I'm not saying I never would. I'm saying there's a lot that has amassed that would need to be balanced out on the other end.
With everyone that could had done the promotion denying it or having bad blood with Remco and would possibly deny it no matter what, the conclusion might just be that this is an uncheckable belt claim. In which case the vote points would optimally just stay at zero forever, with neither up nor downvotes. If everyone voted like that, I wouldn't see the need for downvoting. But that's not the case now and I personally think that for every one in these cases reasoning that no evidence means I'll give my upvote, there should be one that reasons the opposite.
But I would be very interested in hearing more from people who were actually there and are willing to say both what they know and how they know it. How do you easiest contact Draculino, through a channel that's easy to verify that it's really him? If he's willing to challenge Yamasaki and CBJJ on the claims that Yamasaki didn't promote Remco in 1996 and CBJJ had the 2:nd degree rule already then (would it really matter if Yamasaki did the promotion though?), that could be a game changer.
Boiled down: It can't both be true that Yamasaki promoted Remco (Remco's but not Draculino's claim) and Yamasaki not promoting Remco (Yamasaki's claim), can it?
And it can't both be true that the federation itself promoted Remco (Draculino's claim?) and that it was Carlinho and Yamasaki who promoted Remco (Remco's claim), can it?
Or do you see any ways in which these alternative story lines can be combined, so that more than one can be true?
That doesn't necessarily point someone out as a liar - e.g. Remco and/or Draculino can also have misunderstood the implications of Remco being allowed to compete in the BB division and thought of this as a promotion, even though it was never the intention. Although I really think it would then be best to back off on the claims when it is clear that it won't ever be produced any evidence from those claimed to have done the promotion.
With everyone that could had done the promotion denying it or having bad blood with Remco and would possibly deny it no matter what, the conclusion might just be that this is an uncheckable belt claim. In which case the vote points would optimally just stay at zero forever, with neither up nor downvotes. If everyone voted like that, I wouldn't see the need for downvoting. But that's not the case now and I personally think that for every one in these cases reasoning that no evidence means I'll give my upvote, there should be one that reasons the opposite.
But I would be very interested in hearing more from people who were actually there and are willing to say both what they know and how they know it. How do you easiest contact Draculino, through a channel that's easy to verify that it's really him? If he's willing to challenge Yamasaki and CBJJ on the claims that Yamasaki didn't promote Remco in 1996 and CBJJ had the 2:nd degree rule already then (would it really matter if Yamasaki did the promotion though?), that could be a game changer.
Boiled down: It can't both be true that Yamasaki promoted Remco (Remco's but not Draculino's claim) and Yamasaki not promoting Remco (Yamasaki's claim), can it?
And it can't both be true that the federation itself promoted Remco (Draculino's claim?) and that it was Carlinho and Yamasaki who promoted Remco (Remco's claim), can it?
Or do you see any ways in which these alternative story lines can be combined, so that more than one can be true?
That doesn't necessarily point someone out as a liar - e.g. Remco and/or Draculino can also have misunderstood the implications of Remco being allowed to compete in the BB division and thought of this as a promotion, even though it was never the intention. Although I really think it would then be best to back off on the claims when it is clear that it won't ever be produced any evidence from those claimed to have done the promotion.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
We live in a world where Ashton Kutcher is a legitimate brown belt (by rank) and Remco's rank is questioned. Weird
Doctor says I'm not allowed to laugh hard this early in the morning! LOL
It is weird! LOL
It is weird! LOL
SEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
We live in a world where Ashton Kutcher is a legitimate brown belt (by rank) and Remco's rank is questioned. Weird
Ashton is here?!🤓
TRBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Ashton is here?!🤓
I bet he thought about joining, but after seeing Johan's downvotes he changed his mind.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I bet he thought about joining, but after seeing Johan's downvotes he changed his mind.
It's entirely possible he might not suck.
I mean, dude is super wealthy and has all the time in the world to train.
I mean, dude is super wealthy and has all the time in the world to train.
MBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
It's entirely possible he might not suck. I mean, dude is super wealthy and has all the time in the world to train.
I don’t know Ashton at all, but has anyone ever been remotely good by ONLY doing privates and never putting themselves into general population?
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I reread the initial post talk about backfiring
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I don’t know Ashton at all, but has anyone ever been remotely good by ONLY doing privates and never putting themselves into general population?
That's certainly been my observation as well. I know several folks who got as far as brown belt exclusively from privates. One of them finally started rolling in classes and had a terrible time of it because he couldn't deal with anything unexpected or any moves he hadn't learned from his instructor. He's a black belt now, and has a very good knowledge of the foundations, but as far as rolling goes, he can barely hold his own against most purple belts.
LPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I'm not saying I never would. I'm saying there's a lot that has amassed that would need to be balanced out on the other end. With everyone that could had done the promotion denying it or having bad blood with Remco and would possibly deny it no matter what, the conclusion might just be that this is an uncheckable belt claim. In which case the vote points would optimally just stay at zero forever, with neither up nor downvotes. If everyone voted like that, I wouldn't see the need for downvoting. But that's not the case now and I personally think that for every one in these cases reasoning that no evidence means I'll give my upvote, there should be one that reasons the opposite. But I would be very interested in hearing more from people who were actually there and are willing to say both what they know and how they know it. How do you easiest contact Draculino, through a channel that's easy to verify that it's really him? If he's willing to challenge Yamasaki and CBJJ on the claims that Yamasaki didn't promote Remco in 1996 and CBJJ had the 2:nd degree rule already then (would it really matter if Yamasaki did the promotion though?), that could be a game changer. Boiled down: It can't both be true that Yamasaki promoted Remco (Remco's but not Draculino's claim) and Yamasaki not promoting Remco (Yamasaki's claim), can it? And it can't both be true that the federation itself promoted Remco (Draculino's claim?) and that it was Carlinho and Yamasaki who promoted Remco (Remco's claim), can it? Or do you see any ways in which these alternative story lines can be combined, so that more than one can be true? That doesn't necessarily point someone out as a liar - e.g. Remco and/or Draculino can also have misunderstood the implications of Remco being allowed to compete in the BB division and thought of this as a promotion, even though it was never the intention. Although I really think it would then be best to back off on the claims when it is clear that it won't ever be produced any evidence from those claimed to have done the promotion.
It really depends on what you are verifying...
Are you verifying someone is a BJJ black belt or are you verifying the accuracy of how someone became a black belt?
It seems like most people on this site are primarily concerned with if someone is actually a black belt or not and they vote accordingly.
This does not sit well with you and instead of accepting the fact that most people have a different perspective, you just admitted it has caused you to take a different tactic and now dispute more than you otherwise would because you feel the need to offset the people who use this site different than you do.
Are you verifying someone is a BJJ black belt or are you verifying the accuracy of how someone became a black belt?
It seems like most people on this site are primarily concerned with if someone is actually a black belt or not and they vote accordingly.
This does not sit well with you and instead of accepting the fact that most people have a different perspective, you just admitted it has caused you to take a different tactic and now dispute more than you otherwise would because you feel the need to offset the people who use this site different than you do.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
It really depends on what you are verifying... Are you verifying someone is a BJJ black belt or are you verifying the accuracy of how someone became a black belt? It seems like most people on this site are primarily concerned with if someone is actually a black belt or not and they vote accordingly. This does not sit well with you and instead of accepting the fact that most people have a different perspective, you just admitted it has caused you to take a different tactic and now dispute more than you otherwise would because you feel the need to offset the people who use this site different than you do.
He IS a BB. Even a 4:th degree one. It is the 6:th degree (with coral belt up next) I'm disputing and I'm disputing that he pushes others off the dirty dozen lists and the fastest to BB lists.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
This time, I was on the defending side, but really felt no need to revenge vote (poorly masked or otherwise) on behalf of a countryman or come with tirades and foul language insults.
Interesting! It's almost like it's possible to handle differences more maturely than that ;-)
Interesting! It's almost like it's possible to handle differences more maturely than that ;-)
SLBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
This time, I was on the defending side, but really felt no need to revenge vote (poorly masked or otherwise) on behalf of a countryman or come with tirades and foul language insults. Interesting! It's almost like it's possible to handle differences more maturely than that ;-)
Step in the right direction Johan? Turned a corner? Haha
JCPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I get that Johan down voting profiles for seemingly no reason pisses people off. I don't really understand why he does it because it really doesn't matter (and I'll tell you why in a minute) in any case I found. I also see a lot of down votes from many people that say something like "I don't dispute your rank, but you need more evidence" as a justification for the down vote. If you don't dispute their rank, there is another option available to you other than an up vote or down vote. That option is to simply shut up and move on. Chances are that you don't know the person and will never meet them in real life anyway and for some people, me included, it just isn't that big a deal to keep up with everything. Why not leave the verification up to the people that do actually know them? I'm sure my profile is well worthy of a down vote from Johan, and probably a lot of others. I honestly don't know if it would bother me or not if I got down voted. All I have for evidence is pics of my certificates. I'm not a big picture taker and really don't keep a lot of things like that. The only person that cares about my memories is me; I don't need pictures to force my memories on others. My teammates have spoken up for me, and hundreds of other people have spoken up for them, including our instructor whose credentials are beyond reproach. Even Johan voted for him. If you see a profile with thousands of up vote points by their teammates and their promoting instructor, are pictures really what you want to hang your hat on for verification? Doesn't really make much sense to me. Either throw them an upvote or keep scrolling. It's not written anywhere that you have to vote for anyone.
As for Johan's voting habits, here are the numbers. Keep in mind that these can change minute by minute and may not match if you go look at them. And I also haven't been properly caffeinated yet this morning and may not be mathing correctly. Anyway... By my count Johan has given 704 votes. Of those, 570 are ups and 134 are downs, so about 20% of his votes are downs. Doesn't seem that unreasonable. Of the down votes he's given, 58 of those people aren't verified and other people seem to agree with him so over 40% of the time his vote isn't off base. Of all of the people he down voted I didn't see a single one that looked like his vote made the difference between being verified or not. They were all either so far above or below the verification points needed that his vote was effectively meaningless, and for many of the unverified profiles all they had were negative votes. For those that were verified you have to actually go look at their profile to see if they have any down votes; there isn't a huge red flag that waves saying the have 17,175 of the required 1,000 votes but one person down voted them. So what difference does it really make?
As for Johan's voting habits, here are the numbers. Keep in mind that these can change minute by minute and may not match if you go look at them. And I also haven't been properly caffeinated yet this morning and may not be mathing correctly. Anyway... By my count Johan has given 704 votes. Of those, 570 are ups and 134 are downs, so about 20% of his votes are downs. Doesn't seem that unreasonable. Of the down votes he's given, 58 of those people aren't verified and other people seem to agree with him so over 40% of the time his vote isn't off base. Of all of the people he down voted I didn't see a single one that looked like his vote made the difference between being verified or not. They were all either so far above or below the verification points needed that his vote was effectively meaningless, and for many of the unverified profiles all they had were negative votes. For those that were verified you have to actually go look at their profile to see if they have any down votes; there isn't a huge red flag that waves saying the have 17,175 of the required 1,000 votes but one person down voted them. So what difference does it really make?
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Obviously I think it's time to add a "Johan" section to the stats page.
DUBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I am down voter on various profiles that have claims without clear evidence attached. I am new here and I have read the FAQ on casting votes.
https://www.beltchecker.c[...]rification
Can't my instructor just verify my rank here?
This is an option. You can tag your instructor's profile in each belt promotion record and he/she can verify or dispute having done the promotion; the decision being displayed publicly on your profile. The community and individuals are then free to choose if they want to use that as standard for rank verification.
By what criteria should I vote to verify or dispute someone?
This is up to you! Organically, many different standards for verification will evolve as the site grows, and this is completely fine. At the end of the day, the combined vote of the entire community will ultimately decide on verification or dispute. The actual voting criteria will become an average of all criteria from the entire community.
The reason why the instructors sign off isn’t weighted more is for the same reason as this:
Can I use my IBJJF card to verify my rank?
No. Aquiring rank verification with IBJJF only requires the approval of one black belt to sign off for you. Beltchecker.com requires several verified profiles from the community to verify your profile, so a single person approving your belt rank is not enough.
So, this reads to me as site requires more to be verified than just one instructor and adding your vote just because the instructor says so breaks that clause. This I would interpret different if you knew the instructor personally.
So why downvote instead of just saying nothing?
Well the FAQ states:
What if someone has a personal feud and unfairly downvotes someone else because of it?
A single person's vote does not carry enough weight to make a difference in someone's verification.
The other options are to leave a message on the wall or DM the person. Both often go ignored. I have downvoted several people and within 24hrs had a note saying new images uploaded, and switched it to an upvote.
I have raised a topic to alter the voting system here: https://www.beltchecker.c[...]7d0d7b7f62
https://www.beltchecker.c[...]rification
Can't my instructor just verify my rank here?
This is an option. You can tag your instructor's profile in each belt promotion record and he/she can verify or dispute having done the promotion; the decision being displayed publicly on your profile. The community and individuals are then free to choose if they want to use that as standard for rank verification.
By what criteria should I vote to verify or dispute someone?
This is up to you! Organically, many different standards for verification will evolve as the site grows, and this is completely fine. At the end of the day, the combined vote of the entire community will ultimately decide on verification or dispute. The actual voting criteria will become an average of all criteria from the entire community.
The reason why the instructors sign off isn’t weighted more is for the same reason as this:
Can I use my IBJJF card to verify my rank?
No. Aquiring rank verification with IBJJF only requires the approval of one black belt to sign off for you. Beltchecker.com requires several verified profiles from the community to verify your profile, so a single person approving your belt rank is not enough.
So, this reads to me as site requires more to be verified than just one instructor and adding your vote just because the instructor says so breaks that clause. This I would interpret different if you knew the instructor personally.
So why downvote instead of just saying nothing?
Well the FAQ states:
What if someone has a personal feud and unfairly downvotes someone else because of it?
A single person's vote does not carry enough weight to make a difference in someone's verification.
The other options are to leave a message on the wall or DM the person. Both often go ignored. I have downvoted several people and within 24hrs had a note saying new images uploaded, and switched it to an upvote.
I have raised a topic to alter the voting system here: https://www.beltchecker.c[...]7d0d7b7f62
