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Bluebelt gatekeeping
2 year(s) ago • 2123 views • 39 replies
Blue beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I usually give it a month (or until the profile would otherwise be close to or over verification status) and explain the option to make the profile unvoteable. If there's still not enough evidence to do the belt checking which the site title implies, that's a down vote from me.
Totally fair, apologies if I came across a bit combative.
Hope to meet you one day if you ever find yourself on Skye.
Hope to meet you one day if you ever find yourself on Skye.
Black beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Voteable profiles without evidence will forever scream for attention in the needing votes section, so at least I make sure to mark them with negative points so they don't steal attention from profiles deserving of a quick verification.
Sigh...
Purple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
It’s called BeltChecker for a reason. Give enough evidence to get “checked” and then you will receive votes
That's totally fine. It's up to people to decided to confirm other or not under their own criteria.
I don't verify profiles without a lot of evidence, ideally a personal real work interaction with them.
But there is a huge difference between not verifying, and actively posting negative points. Negative points means you are claiming that the profile is fraudulent. That is absolutely the gatekeeping the OP is referring to.
I don't verify profiles without a lot of evidence, ideally a personal real work interaction with them.
But there is a huge difference between not verifying, and actively posting negative points. Negative points means you are claiming that the profile is fraudulent. That is absolutely the gatekeeping the OP is referring to.
Purple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I usually give it a month (or until the profile would otherwise be close to or over verification status) and explain the option to make the profile unvoteable. If there's still not enough evidence to do the belt checking which the site title implies, that's a down vote from me.
This seems like a misuse of the vote function, to the point of being a dishonest. Which is really not a great look for anyone involved.
People are not obligated to meet anyone's request for information. If they o not, then obviously don't verify. But just because some profile is too blank to verify. That is really not sufficient to back up a claim that the profile is incorrect, fraudulent or misleading.
People are not obligated to meet anyone's request for information. If they o not, then obviously don't verify. But just because some profile is too blank to verify. That is really not sufficient to back up a claim that the profile is incorrect, fraudulent or misleading.
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
This seems like a misuse of the vote function, to the point of being a dishonest. Which is really not a great look for anyone involved. People are not obligated to meet anyone's request for information. If they o not, then obviously don't verify. But just because some profile is too blank to verify. That is really not sufficient to back up a claim that the profile is incorrect, fraudulent or misleading.
Is it then also not a misuse of the vote function, to the point of being dishonest, to up vote the profile of some one you've never met, who has no real evidence of the claimed promotion and nothing supporting a legit lineage or info what that lineage would be? There are far more votes like that cast on Beltchecker than down votes due to lack of evidence.
If Beltchecker works as I believe it should (and as would be a real alternative to the money grab certifications of IBJJF, SBJJ etc, as was a main purpose of the site starting in the first place), they wouldn't get verified anyways with that kind of profile, would they? So what harm is done, when the decision is up to them if they want to make the profile unvoteable until they have gathered good evidence?
If Beltchecker works as I believe it should (and as would be a real alternative to the money grab certifications of IBJJF, SBJJ etc, as was a main purpose of the site starting in the first place), they wouldn't get verified anyways with that kind of profile, would they? So what harm is done, when the decision is up to them if they want to make the profile unvoteable until they have gathered good evidence?
Purple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Is it then also not a misuse of the vote function, to the point of being dishonest, to up vote the profile of some one you've never met, who has no real evidence of the claimed promotion and nothing supporting a legit lineage or info what that lineage would be? There are far more votes like that cast on Beltchecker than down votes due to lack of evidence. If Beltchecker works as I believe it should (and as would be a real alternative to the money grab certifications of IBJJF, SBJJ etc, as was a main purpose of the site starting in the first place), they wouldn't get verified anyways with that kind of profile, would they? So what harm is done, when the decision is up to them if they want to make the profile unvoteable until they have gathered good evidence?
Whataboutism doesn't help you. Showing something else is also wrong or worse doesn't mean you are right. I'm not saying you are wrong, but saying other people vote in a way that is worse doesn't mean you are right.
What is the harm? You may turn people off and actively push them away from the site. Asking for evidence and withholding a positive vote is not near as abrasive as a dispute. Someone new to the site doesn't know you or your reputation and they might assume the whole site is filled with drama and people trying to poke holes and witch hunt 'fake' belts.
That said, I also disagree with anyone who says that a certain use of voting is a "misuse of voting". This site was setup very intentionally in a way that the community decides the correct use of its features. You will not find hard rules on when you should or shouldn't use votes in either direction. That is decided right here - in conversations between users. While I appreciate the effort and commitment to going the extra step to validate people, I do believe you have overstepped in how you use disputes and might do more harm than good, but I'm just one person and could be wrong.
Once again - I would advocate for a 3rd vote option which is just a request for more information to be added.
What is the harm? You may turn people off and actively push them away from the site. Asking for evidence and withholding a positive vote is not near as abrasive as a dispute. Someone new to the site doesn't know you or your reputation and they might assume the whole site is filled with drama and people trying to poke holes and witch hunt 'fake' belts.
That said, I also disagree with anyone who says that a certain use of voting is a "misuse of voting". This site was setup very intentionally in a way that the community decides the correct use of its features. You will not find hard rules on when you should or shouldn't use votes in either direction. That is decided right here - in conversations between users. While I appreciate the effort and commitment to going the extra step to validate people, I do believe you have overstepped in how you use disputes and might do more harm than good, but I'm just one person and could be wrong.
Once again - I would advocate for a 3rd vote option which is just a request for more information to be added.
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Whataboutism doesn't help you. Showing something else is also wrong or worse doesn't mean you are right. I'm not saying you are wrong, but saying other people vote in a way that is worse doesn't mean you are right. What is the harm? You may turn people off and actively push them away from the site. Asking for evidence and withholding a positive vote is not near as abrasive as a dispute. Someone new to the site doesn't know you or your reputation and they might assume the whole site is filled with drama and people trying to poke holes and witch hunt 'fake' belts. That said, I also disagree with anyone who says that a certain use of voting is a 'misuse of voting'. This site was setup very intentionally in a way that the community decides the correct use of its features. You will not find hard rules on when you should or shouldn't use votes in either direction. That is decided right here - in conversations between users. While I appreciate the effort and commitment to going the extra step to validate people, I do believe you have overstepped in how you use disputes and might do more harm than good, but I'm just one person and could be wrong. Once again - I would advocate for a 3rd vote option which is just a request for more information to be added.
I don't need to be helped by whataboutism. I value the idea of a better way of verifying degrees than IBJJF, SBJJ etc and am being very pragmatic in my conviction that standards then need to be as high or higher. Also, it would already be hopelessly time consuming to help deserving members out through the "Profiles needing more votes to verify" if profiles without evidence were just left forever with zero or even a couple of positive points.
Doing BJJ, you really shouldn't be so fragile that you can't take a dispute. Anyone with a college education should already have the experience of getting disputed over lacking evidence (listing sources usually) and then just adding better evidence and continuing with their lives without their feelings being so fatally wounded that they had to quit their education. I want to believe that someone getting into BJJ and then joining what is explicitly called Beltchecker would be capable of the same.
Doing BJJ, you really shouldn't be so fragile that you can't take a dispute. Anyone with a college education should already have the experience of getting disputed over lacking evidence (listing sources usually) and then just adding better evidence and continuing with their lives without their feelings being so fatally wounded that they had to quit their education. I want to believe that someone getting into BJJ and then joining what is explicitly called Beltchecker would be capable of the same.
Purple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I don't need to be helped by whataboutism. I value the idea of a better way of verifying degrees than IBJJF, SBJJ etc and am being very pragmatic in my conviction that standards then need to be as high or higher. Also, it would already be hopelessly time consuming to help deserving members out through the 'Profiles needing more votes to verify' if profiles without evidence were just left forever with zero or even a couple of positive points. Doing BJJ, you really shouldn't be so fragile that you can't take a dispute. Anyone with a college education should already have the experience of getting disputed over lacking evidence (listing sources usually) and then just adding better evidence and continuing with their lives without their feelings being so fatally wounded that they had to quit their education. I want to believe that someone getting into BJJ and then joining what is explicitly called Beltchecker would be capable of the same.
I understand your very unique take on it. Again, I'm just a lone voice giving you feedback. For me personally - the way you vote has made your upvotes carry much more weight because I know you have checked; however, your disputes are completely worthless unless you attached a link with your last 6 months of research on why they are actually frauds.
Purple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Is it then also not a misuse of the vote function, to the point of being dishonest, to up vote the profile of some one you've never met, who has no real evidence of the claimed promotion and nothing supporting a legit lineage or info what that lineage would be?
Yes, up voting somebody with zero evidence is also dishonest.
In what way does that justifies dishonest down votes? You are presenting a really obvious false dichotomy. Absolute whataboutism - although I agree its not helping your argument. Nobody is suggesting that these profile should be upvoted instead. If they don't have the evidence simply don't vote.
It's not about hurt feelings or demands for information. It simply that I believe that votes on Beltchecker should be honest. I don't think that's a big ask.
In what way does that justifies dishonest down votes? You are presenting a really obvious false dichotomy. Absolute whataboutism - although I agree its not helping your argument. Nobody is suggesting that these profile should be upvoted instead. If they don't have the evidence simply don't vote.
It's not about hurt feelings or demands for information. It simply that I believe that votes on Beltchecker should be honest. I don't think that's a big ask.
Blue beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Do we really need to see photo-evidence to verify every belt-grade? Will not a verified coach or trainingpartner do? I'm all for higher belts providing photo evidence (It would be strange for a blackbelt to omit a promotion-photo in this day and age), but not everyone is into sharing photos of everything they do.
When I started training a blue belt was like a god. I think BJJ belts are only given to people that can genuinely defend themselves and have a really strong understanding of how to control someone. I think that photo verification is definitely fair. I think we are one of very very few martial arts where our belts have integrity. If someone is camera shy I'm sure a photo of you're certificate and belt you got from your coach would be sufficient to a lot of people to verify you if you don't want to be in the photo yourself?


