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Subjectivity of belt

2 year(s) ago • 2599 views • 55 replies

Mark Gilston
Mark Gilston
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified200 forum posts6335/1000
2 year(s) ago
would you agree that 'being a good Uke/partner' should sit at white belt? I personally believe that learning how to be the receiving partner goes a long way in calming the spazzing down. It's incredible how overlooked being a good uke can be when it is an integral part of learning anything grappling related.
I've taught judo for well over 40 years, and being a good uke is probably one of the 3 most important aspects of learning and advancing. Sadly though, it is very difficult to teach, especially with children. If it were a requirement to move on from white belt, I think half the people who take up judo would take 3 years or more to reach yellow. I find many green belts and even some brown belts are still really lousy at being a good training partner, and that goes for BJJ just as much as for judo.
Anthony Nelson
Anthony Nelson
Black belt 1st degreeVerified489 forum posts10580/1000
2 year(s) ago
My classes revolve around them. So at the danger of triggering people, my classes are mostly something akin to ecological. So just last night my class revolved entirely around “Exit strategies.” However these strategies are often implicit in other classes. Every class we practice inside position, connecting to our partner, destabilization, contraction vs extension, etc. So I actually get to see a lot of these concepts in my students. At the same time it is easy for me to see this in people that (have) train(ed) elsewhere, no matter their style or lineage
That’s super interesting! for me, I’m not used to training like that so it would be a nightmare for me to track. Hahah. I seen a few videos on the ecological versions of training. I need to learn more, but it always feels like positional sparring with a purpose. I know there’s way more to it
James Jones
James Jones
Black beltVerified1310 forum posts6475/1000
2 year(s) ago
I like multi-positional sparring with lower belts. No idea what else to call it.

Where you basically have a few goals and are only using 2 or 3 positions that you are sticking within. It's not open sparring.

Allows for proper timing/strategy/transitions while still having a good focus on specific things.

It's a little bit more realistic than just positional sparring from a single position with only one goal in mind. Also allows for multiple goals that could be achieved in all sorts of different ways.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-Zhang
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
These are what i have for purple and brown. Mind you. These arent meant as absolutes. You can grow into a belt. So i do hand out blue and purple even if someone doesnt meet all the criteria yet. I do expect these to change in the near future as my understanding gets deeper and as the sport evolves.
I've seen a lot of attempts at this sort of thing and this is by far the best.

Most of the previous attempts are variations of "must know 3 sweeps from <insert guard>" and "must replicate, under pressure, the exact specific sequence professor won the 1948 London Open with" 🤮🤢🤮🤢
Bren Nolan
Bren Nolan
Purple beltVerified144 forum posts1460/400
2 year(s) ago
For me: Spazzing means you’re uncontrolled and have the propensity to kick somebody in the face by accident. Explosive means that you Use your attributes to accomplish the technique.
I agree that is what spazzing it.
But that's a very broad, to the point of inaccuracy, definition or explosive.

Somebody could use any attribute to accomplish a technique. Strength, speed, weight, length, grip, etc to - none of with are required to be explosive as a prerequisite.

I think a much more straight forward to say explosive is simply the use of power.
Which is what go most sports define it.
Leroy Soesman
Leroy Soesman
Black beltVerified58 forum posts2545/1000
2 year(s) ago
That’s super interesting! for me, I’m not used to training like that so it would be a nightmare for me to track. Hahah. I seen a few videos on the ecological versions of training. I need to learn more, but it always feels like positional sparring with a purpose. I know there’s way more to it
The way i structure this in my mind is that i try to simplify jiu jitsu where i can.

I find that i am not cycling through an entire encyclopedia of moves when I guard pass. Often im just trying to do simple things like: keep the feet off of me and staple the hips.

It’s these objectives i try to pass on to my students. So rather than teaching them moves. I put them in front of their partner and say: dont accept ANY footgrips, then use your body to keep both butt cheeks on the floor.

I make it a point that they keep that focus as we relax the constraints and go into sparring. I think that is mostly what I have these criteria for. To remind me of what to teach, and to remind students of which concepts to place more emphasis on.
Leroy Soesman
Leroy Soesman
Black beltVerified58 forum posts2545/1000
2 year(s) ago
I've seen a lot of attempts at this sort of thing and this is by far the best. Most of the previous attempts are variations of 'must know 3 sweeps from <insert guard>' and 'must replicate, under pressure, the exact specific sequence professor won the 1948 London Open with' 🤮🤢🤮🤢
Thanks so much. I really want them to be timeless and styleless. All encompassing, if you will, without losing practicality.

Some decisions Im still not sure about. Like keeping positions like mount and side etc in blue belt. I do that mostly so my students understand the lingo at other schools. And maybe in the future ill bring grip fighting down to blue as it seems nowadays practitioners are way more aware of the importance.

I dunno. Work in progress. So far it has been working out for me in practice.
Anthony Nelson
Anthony Nelson
Black belt 1st degreeVerified489 forum posts10580/1000
2 year(s) ago
I agree that is what spazzing it. But that's a very broad, to the point of inaccuracy, definition or explosive. Somebody could use any attribute to accomplish a technique. Strength, speed, weight, length, grip, etc to - none of with are required to be explosive as a prerequisite. I think a much more straight forward to say explosive is simply the use of power. Which is what go most sports define it.
How is the “use of power” not an attribute ? This is exactly what I just said.

weight, length, grip, etc to - none of with are required to be explosive as a prerequisite.

How are you going to accomplish the technique without these things? You need these things as well as speed and power. Or a combination of
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-Zhang
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
Thanks so much. I really want them to be timeless and styleless. All encompassing, if you will, without losing practicality. Some decisions Im still not sure about. Like keeping positions like mount and side etc in blue belt. I do that mostly so my students understand the lingo at other schools. And maybe in the future ill bring grip fighting down to blue as it seems nowadays practitioners are way more aware of the importance. I dunno. Work in progress. So far it has been working out for me in practice.
Our club just awarded some blue belts and the blue belt one perfectly captures the things that earned them their blue. As a nearly-purple myself, I basically spent most my time working on grip fighting and improving distance management. The vast majority of questions I have for higher belts are about weight distribution. The brown belt one was really interesting too because I can see I don't do those things well enough. Interestingly it's the first time I've seen a decent articulation of the difference between purple and brown too.
Leroy Soesman
Leroy Soesman
Black beltVerified58 forum posts2545/1000
2 year(s) ago
That is great to hear! Kinda confirms some of the choices, so I’m grateful for that. Crazy to hear that just reading these kind of help you. I’m humbled
James Jones
James Jones
Black beltVerified1310 forum posts6475/1000
2 year(s) ago
Our club just awarded some blue belts and the blue belt one perfectly captures the things that earned them their blue. As a nearly-purple myself, I basically spent most my time working on grip fighting and improving distance management. The vast majority of questions I have for higher belts are about weight distribution. The brown belt one was really interesting too because I can see I don't do those things well enough. Interestingly it's the first time I've seen a decent articulation of the difference between purple and brown too.
What I notice in competition is that purple belts are still in this paper rock scissors game mode based off their A games.

Or the combat triangle so to speak in video games. Warrior, Mage, Archer.

Their styles are easily noticeable and countered by their weaknesses.

A brown belt belt should be able to fairly quickly figure out their opponents style and game plan and be well rounded enough to call an audible on the spot and then execute a counter to their opponent. Purple belts can't do that consistently in competition.

A good purple belt might even have a huge offensive arsenal, but are still normally forcing their A game and not taking the path of least resistance.

Blue belts for example is more a game of Mortal Kombat where they just spam their finishing move on each other until someone's HP bar (energy) hits zero.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Joshua Macri
Joshua Macri
Black belt 1st degreeVerified9 forum posts1420/1000
2 year(s) ago
For blue belt I have a specific list of things they need to do right. For purple belt I’m looking for them to add to that and make their Jiu Jitsu their own. I haven’t promoted a brown belt but I pretty much expect them to be competitive with me so that from brown to black they can work o. What they are bring to the Jiu Jitsu community at large.
Bren Nolan
Bren Nolan
Purple beltVerified144 forum posts1460/400
2 year(s) ago
How is the “use of power” not an attribute ? This is exactly what I just said. weight, length, grip, etc to - none of with are required to be explosive as a prerequisite. How are you going to accomplish the technique without these things? You need these things as well as speed and power. Or a combination of
Where did I say power was not an attribute.
No that's not exactly what you said. You didn't mention power at all.

You simply said that "Explosive means using attributes"
I'm pointing out that's a pretty bad definition for explosive, as most attribute have nothing with exploding. Eg. using flexibility to regain guard is using an attribute. It is however not exploding. This is a very simply point.

"How are you going to accomplish the technique without these things? You need these things as well as speed and power."

You need some or all of those things to do various techniques. But that does not justify classifying any attribute as exploding. Explosive in a sporting context, almost always refers exclusively to the use of power alone.
Anthony Nelson
Anthony Nelson
Black belt 1st degreeVerified489 forum posts10580/1000
2 year(s) ago
Where did I say power was not an attribute. No that's not exactly what you said. You didn't mention power at all. You simply said that 'Explosive means using attributes' I'm pointing out that's a pretty bad definition for explosive, as most attribute have nothing with exploding. Eg. using flexibility to regain guard is using an attribute. It is however not exploding. This is a very simply point. 'How are you going to accomplish the technique without these things? You need these things as well as speed and power.' You need some or all of those things to do various techniques. But that does not justify classifying any attribute as exploding. Explosive in a sporting context, almost always refers exclusively to the use of power alone.
I still don’t agree with what you’re saying at all.

I said:
Explosive means that you Use your attributes to accomplish the technique.

You think explosive just means power

If you use just power to accomplish a technique, it cannot be done without other attributes to channel the power. Grip, height, weight distribution, whatever. If you just used power with no grip, you have nothing. You just have power and no connection. You need to channel power using other attributes. So being explosive requires other attributes to be included or there is “no connection” you are powering into the clouds.

Although I appreciate you wanting to correct my statement ,l don’t agree with you. it’s my statement, it’s my guidelines to promote. I don’t need your dictionary expertise on my promotion criteria.



Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
2 year(s) ago
Coach's and professors, what do you look for at each belt. I know many schools and instructors look for different things. What do you for at a particular belt level?
It's super subjective, but tends to balance out from what I've seen over the years, across various schools.

Main thing I want to see is that you can stay calm and controlled in a roll (if you keep injuring people, you're never getting promoted by me), you have an increasingly sophisticated idea of what to try from the main positions (half/closed/open guard, mount, back and side control) and you can hang with the belt level you're being promoted to. Not tap them, but not get destroyed.



Bren Nolan
Bren Nolan
Purple beltVerified144 forum posts1460/400
2 year(s) ago
I still don’t agree with what you’re saying at all. I said: Explosive means that you Use your attributes to accomplish the technique. You think explosive just means power If you use just power to accomplish a technique, it cannot be done without other attributes to channel the power. Grip, height, weight distribution, whatever. If you just used power with no grip, you have nothing. You just have power and no connection. You need to channel power using other attributes. So being explosive requires other attributes to be included or there is “no connection” you are powering into the clouds. Although I appreciate you wanting to correct my statement ,l don’t agree with you. it’s my statement, it’s my guidelines to promote. I don’t need your dictionary expertise on my promotion criteria.
It's ok that you don't agree. But that has no bearing on whether you are correct. Language is a pretty universal concept.

"I said: Explosive means that you Use your attributes to accomplish the technique."

And I demonstrated how that's not true. It's not really subjective.
You can accomplish a technique, using your attributes with out being explosive at all. Ergo - that's a pretty poor definition for "explosive". It's literally like you are trying to describe an entirely different world.

You could pass a white belts guard, slowly, without force, simply by moving gently around them. That sequence is "using your attributes to accomplish the technique" - by your definition that means explosive, clearly it is not.

"You think explosive just means power"

That's quite literally how it's meaning defined in an athletic/sporting context.

"If you just used power with no grip, you have nothing. You just have power and no connection. You need to channel power using other attributes. So being explosive requires other attributes to be included or there is “no connection” you are powering into the clouds."

Using power without a solid grip, connection, position, etc could well go straight into the clouds. It would achieve nothing, that doesn't mean it wasn't explosive. It simply means that explosiveness was not effective. You get that they completely separate ideas?
I don't see what any of the above impacts your promotion criteria. I don't know your criteria, and certainly haven't commented on it.

I was commenting entirely on your comment about the definition of explosive. I accept that there's multiple uses of various. But we don't really get to make un our own definitions that are disconnected entirely from English.

Spazzy and explosive are different things. They are not mutually exclusive. That should not be a controversial statement.



Peter Gibbs
Peter Gibbs
Blue beltVerified80 forum posts920/200
2 year(s) ago
My coach went through his philosophy on belt levels not as they relate to Jiu Jitsu itself but more the practitioner's level of independence as it relates to raising children:

White belts are like toddlers whom you keep telling not to do something, but they do it anyway and get themselves hurt.

Blue belts are grade school kids who think they're independent just because they can dress themselves in the morning.

Purple belts are preteens who are starting to figure things out and can be trusted to look after themselves for a short time, but still need plenty of guidance.

Brown belts are teenagers who have developed quite a bit of independence, have their drivers license, and can look after themselves, but aren't quite ready to go off on their own yet.

Black belts are adults, where if you mess up you go to jail for real.

It made sense to me when put that way, and seems to be pretty similar to most of the other thoughts in this thread.
Hyoga
Hyoga
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified4 forum posts1185/1000
2 year(s) ago
IMO a good Professor must have a Complete Curriculum that determines a pathway for they students to follow.

That being said, those who compete find that White, blue, purple, brown and black Divisions ar interchangeable for words like Beginner, Intermediate, Upper-Intermediate, Advanced or Professional.

You can be an Athletic, strong young dude with a good strategy of few good moves that finishes everyone in competition so it doesn't make any sense to keep you a blue belt wining for 5 years If you don't improve your general abilities yet get gold every time with proficiency in a few that work for you along with your athleticism.

That only means that belts doesn't matter at all, Division names can be changed so that they don't match a belt and yet Schools will still need to agree on a common Curriculum that every belt means the same here and there.

As for black belt stripes, the only merit one has these days is "not to die in 3, 5, or 7 years" , who cares how many degrees Gordon Ryan has? He is the Goat, his "Belt" is being the GOAT!!

Who cares how many degrees Danaher has, he is arguably the Best Professor in the world, and that is what he is known for that is his mastery....that is his Belt!!!

He would need shades of black or even gold belts for people like Rickson who didn't accept wear a red belt for "Lack Time"...

Merit superceded time, Kimuroa whas a 5th Judo degree at 18 or so. Oyama did the same in several arts.

There's this quote in Japanese "Watashi no michi" that can be translated as "My way" let's care about our own path.

The belt just keeps the jacket closed and it even does a shitty job with that, as it unties and fells off in no time.

Be your own belt guys
Bren Nolan
Bren Nolan
Purple beltVerified144 forum posts1460/400
2 year(s) ago
That being said, those who compete find that White, blue, purple, brown and black Divisions ar interchangeable for words like Beginner, Intermediate, Upper-Intermediate, Advanced or Professional. You can be an Athletic, strong young dude with a good strategy of few good moves that finishes everyone in competition so it doesn't make any sense to keep you a blue belt wining for 5 years If you don't improve your general abilities yet get gold every time with proficiency in a few that work for you along with your
I don't think I've heard upper intermediate used as a division. But usually;

Beginner = White Belt
Intermediate = Blue (and maybe purple)
Advanced = High level purple, brown, black.

Professional seems to be interchangeable with Advanced.


Regarding degrees. IBJJF bases degrees on time in rank. It's not the only way. I'm curious if people think Beltchecker needs to adhere to that system, given that the existence of this place is as an alternative to IBJJF.
Hyoga
Hyoga
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified4 forum posts1185/1000
2 year(s) ago
Sorry, I think I may have not used the best examples.

The word "upper intermediate: was just an example to say that belts can be replaced by any name you choose as the name of a Division, I now it doesn't exist LOL, the usual ones in ADCC an so on are the ones you mentioned.

Mmy point is that if you're going to determine promotions based on how good someone is as a competitor, then it doesn't matter his progress in the Art itself if he keeps getting medals.

I'm in the Spanish Military and we have different kind of rank promotions.
- Time Based: Just don't die in "X" years.
- Classification Based: Medals, missions, courses, Your Officer's reports about you... everything good and bad gives or takes points that make you go up or down in the list of people eligible to get promoted. And in spite of that, you must have passed a short course that ends with a test so as to make sure you know what you should know.

-Election based: In the upper ranks all of the above applies but instead o a point based system, the upper ranks and Politicians are the ones who decide who becomes a Colonel or General.

O think classification based promotions should be the way to go, something Similar could be applied.

The alternative is to forget about promotion an get a rope around the waist so that your jiu jitsu finally speaks for itself.

Bren Nolan
Bren Nolan
Purple beltVerified144 forum posts1460/400
2 year(s) ago
Sorry, I think I may have not used the best examples. The word 'upper intermediate: was just an example to say that belts can be replaced by any name you choose as the name of a Division, I now it doesn't exist LOL, the usual ones in ADCC an so on are the ones you mentioned. Mmy point is that if you're going to determine promotions based on how good someone is as a competitor, then it doesn't matter his progress in the Art itself if he keeps getting medals. I'm in the Spanish Military and we have different kind of rank promotions. - Time Based: Just don't die in 'X' years. - Classification Based: Medals, missions, courses, Your Officer's reports about you... everything good and bad gives or takes points that make you go up or down in the list of people eligible to get promoted. And in spite of that, you must have passed a short course that ends with a test so as to make sure you know what you should know. -Election based: In the upper ranks all of the above applies but instead o a point based system, the upper ranks and Politicians are the ones who decide who becomes a Colonel or General. O think classification based promotions should be the way to go, something Similar could be applied. The alternative is to forget about promotion an get a rope around the waist so that your jiu jitsu finally speaks for itself.
Intermediate / Advanced are not ranks though. They parallel rank as comp divisions but they are not ranks.
Nobody needs or waits for a coach to promote to to the advanced division. They just enter when they want to.

Performing at the highest level doesn't equate to holding the corresponding rank in BJJ. We have many wrestlers in top level competition these days. Great grapplers, nit BJJ black belts.

Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-Zhang
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
Intermediate / Advanced are not ranks though. They parallel rank as comp divisions but they are not ranks. Nobody needs or waits for a coach to promote to tPerforming at the highest level doesn't equate to holding the corresponding rank in BJJ. We have many wrestlers in top level competition these days. Great grapplers, nit BJJ black belts.
Although it's a bit cringe when rank and performance get completely decoupled for reasons other than age / injury. Not so common in BJJ, but quite prevalent in certain other martial arts.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
2 year(s) ago
Finally it is always the same.
If anybody is obviously overrated it is always the question who promoted that guy to whatever?

And that is the reason a lineage makes sense, as long as there are only a overviewable amount of BB and global networks like beltchecker existing:
It is all indicating back to Yourself as a promoting instructor , the good students and the bad, the well deserved promotions and the mistakes by promoting to fast, without checking the student in a sufficient way and so on.

It is like here on beltchecker, we all have to find our scales to be fine with the results.
That is a way and we are all trying to minimize the shit happens on that way sometimes….
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Bren Nolan
Bren Nolan
Purple beltVerified144 forum posts1460/400
2 year(s) ago
Although it's a bit cringe when rank and performance get completely decoupled for reasons other than age / injury. Not so common in BJJ, but quite prevalent in certain other martial arts.
I agree when rank exceeds performance by a gross margin. But not in the case of the reverse.
There are many many people who are compete grapplers, legitimate whitebelts in BJJ, but would destroy the average BJJ black belt
Alexander King-Zhang
Alexander King-Zhang
Purple beltVerified661 forum posts2020/400
2 year(s) ago
I agree when rank exceeds performance by a gross margin. But not in the case of the reverse. There are many many people who are compete grapplers, legitimate whitebelts in BJJ, but would destroy the average BJJ black belt
Absolutely, that's why I've never understood people who chase rank. I'm personally not exactly thrilled about wearing the next belt when travelling as it is. I very much like being a blue belt with low expectations placed on me, rather than being a target for the lower belts.

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