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Question for experienced IBJJF refs/competitors: passing triangle
4 month(s) ago • 301 views • 16 replies
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Today I debated a very confident experienced ref who said that when passing from a serious triangle into sidemount you don't get passing points because it's a submission escape not a pass.
Where's the truth here?
Is it different if triangle was thrown from guard or e.g. sidemount?
You could ask the same question about armbars.
Where's the truth here?
Is it different if triangle was thrown from guard or e.g. sidemount?
You could ask the same question about armbars.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
As long as you go from established guard to established side control then it really shouldn't matter if there's a submission attempt in between? That's what they get an advantage for
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
The IBJJF guard pass video is pretty clear on the matter IMO. Is there room for interpretation?
https://youtu.be/-ZCXlsP-[...]FCTz6xmyfE
https://youtu.be/-ZCXlsP-[...]FCTz6xmyfE
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
"Diamond guard", aka triangle position, is still a guard, so if you pass it, then it's a guard pass... no?
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Your very confident experienced ref is very incorrect (unless he's working for Grappling Industries or NAGA or something that has a unique set of criteria).
Ask him if turning someone over while you have them in a triangle is a sweep. HINT: it is. And you can only get sweep points from a guard. I always explain iit like this:
You can only score points from a neutral (guard, standing) or good (side, mount, back mount) position. If you are in a bad position you have to get to a neutral position before you can get points.
Ask him if turning someone over while you have them in a triangle is a sweep. HINT: it is. And you can only get sweep points from a guard. I always explain iit like this:
You can only score points from a neutral (guard, standing) or good (side, mount, back mount) position. If you are in a bad position you have to get to a neutral position before you can get points.
JCPurple beltVerified
4 month(s) ago
The problem with being an experienced ref is that it's easier to do it wrong for 20 years than it is to do it right. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a tournament or other event that's gone to a referee's decision and when their decision is announced I'm not sure we watched the same match. It's really bad.
FBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
A Triangle is a guard by definition. So a Triangle escape to side control established for 3 sec is a pass, 3 pts.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Yet, IBJJF also has an example that if A goes for ambar from top, B does a hitchhiker, comes to the knees, escapes armbar, gets on top side control then B gets no points.
Or is it dependent on guard-ish armbar from bottom position existing for at least 3 seconds?
Or is it dependent on guard-ish armbar from bottom position existing for at least 3 seconds?
JCPurple beltVerified
4 month(s) ago
Yet, IBJJF also has an example that if A goes for ambar from top, B does a hitchhiker, comes to the knees, escapes armbar, gets on top side control then B gets no points. Or is it dependent on guard-ish armbar from bottom position existing for at least 3 seconds?
I think the key there is that A was on top, not working with someone in their guard.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
I think the key there is that A was on top, not working with someone in their guard.
Yes, this is it.
I was surprised to learn when I took the rules course as part of my certification, that you cannot score points at all from bottom turtle position. Ever.
Even in the even that player A tries to pass player B's guard, player B turtles for a split second to defend the pass and "double legs" player A, which would normally be a sweep scenario, it does not score.
So, in the scenario you described Jorgen, player B definitely doesn't get any points because they weren't using their guard, but rather escapes to something like a turtle position.
I was surprised to learn when I took the rules course as part of my certification, that you cannot score points at all from bottom turtle position. Ever.
Even in the even that player A tries to pass player B's guard, player B turtles for a split second to defend the pass and "double legs" player A, which would normally be a sweep scenario, it does not score.
So, in the scenario you described Jorgen, player B definitely doesn't get any points because they weren't using their guard, but rather escapes to something like a turtle position.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Yet, IBJJF also has an example that if A goes for ambar from top, B does a hitchhiker, comes to the knees, escapes armbar, gets on top side control then B gets no points. Or is it dependent on guard-ish armbar from bottom position existing for at least 3 seconds?
Can’t score a guard pass if you were never in the guard
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Yes. But using your legs to control opponent is guard.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Yes. But using your legs to control opponent is guard.
It seems that in your example above, you are describing an arm bar starting from mount, or perhaps side control/knee-on-belly. Those would both be separate positions from the guard position. If you're controlling someone with your legs from top mount, back mount or sometimes side control, then that's not a guard, you can't pass it, and there are therefore no points awarded for the guard pass.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Yes. But using your legs to control opponent is guard.
By that logic mount would also be guard. Or armbar from top for that sake.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
By that logic mount would also be guard. Or armbar from top for that sake.
In a zero-gravity environment, guard and mount are the same position.
I think too much BJJ in the ocean for you, island man. Or maybe outer space?
I think too much BJJ in the ocean for you, island man. Or maybe outer space?
JCPurple beltVerified
4 month(s) ago
By that logic mount would also be guard. Or armbar from top for that sake.
It's just inverted guard.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Yet, IBJJF also has an example that if A goes for ambar from top, B does a hitchhiker, comes to the knees, escapes armbar, gets on top side control then B gets no points. Or is it dependent on guard-ish armbar from bottom position existing for at least 3 seconds?
Yes. The 3 second rule still applies.
