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Second degree rule compliance in your country or state for black belt promotions?
4 month(s) ago • 486 views • 16 replies
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
Are there perhaps regional differences, where the "rule" is consistently disregarded in some? Can we expect members from those areas to be both surprised and upset seeing comments or down votes from people living where there's more or less total compliance with the second degree "rule" (henceforth "2DR")? Or do you think resentment of "2DR-enforcement" (basically doing what Beltchecker is designed for with your vote and comment) is more on an individual level, even among members themselves living in a high compliance country or state?
I had a feeling I would find a lot of Swedish pre 2010 cases with <2:nd degree BB:s promoting new black belts, so I ran an analysis on the list of all(?) Swedish black belts promoted mid 2017 or earlier (N=182). I only found seven cases, which were maximum two years early (three Leo Vieira lineage, two Edson Carvalho lineage and two Royce Gracie lineage). All but one was from 2010 or earlier (and one from 2013) and with no later promoted students of their own indicated (up to mid 2017), so shouldn't have any consequence to new generations along those lineages, if 2DR is now upheld. And nowhere have i seen any "signed off by", "with blessing from" or anything like that, just full out honest senior co-promotion in cases where the everyday instructor didn't yet have 2:nd degree when it was time for someone's black belt promotion. Might also be the case with some of the seven cases mentioned above, but only a <2:nd degree promoting instructor was mentioned in the list. So worst case for Sweden, it's still below 4% BB promotions from a <2:nd degree BB. And might already be down under 1%, with all new black belts since, so we could call that a 99% compliance.
What degree of compliance would you estimate there to be in your country or state? Or if you even have some real data to crunch for a number.
The usual disclaimer:
A no-degree BB or even a white belt can of course promote someone to BB without anyone stopping them. We all know the arguments against the 2DR by now - there's no central governing body (and enforcing of the 2DR can be accused of being IBJJF-centric, even if the standard or its equivalent is older) and perhaps already a blue belt should be able to recognize black belt level when they see and feel it (so why shouldn't they be allowed to promote black belts?). Yet the 2DR is established in that a promotion by anything less than a 2:nd degree will likely be disputed quickly while I've never seen a promotion from a legitimate 2:nd degree or higher be contested based on the promoting instructor not having been a black belt for long enough and having the corresponding stripes (not counting IBJJF themselves, with new 3:rd degree and provisional BB money grabs).
I had a feeling I would find a lot of Swedish pre 2010 cases with <2:nd degree BB:s promoting new black belts, so I ran an analysis on the list of all(?) Swedish black belts promoted mid 2017 or earlier (N=182). I only found seven cases, which were maximum two years early (three Leo Vieira lineage, two Edson Carvalho lineage and two Royce Gracie lineage). All but one was from 2010 or earlier (and one from 2013) and with no later promoted students of their own indicated (up to mid 2017), so shouldn't have any consequence to new generations along those lineages, if 2DR is now upheld. And nowhere have i seen any "signed off by", "with blessing from" or anything like that, just full out honest senior co-promotion in cases where the everyday instructor didn't yet have 2:nd degree when it was time for someone's black belt promotion. Might also be the case with some of the seven cases mentioned above, but only a <2:nd degree promoting instructor was mentioned in the list. So worst case for Sweden, it's still below 4% BB promotions from a <2:nd degree BB. And might already be down under 1%, with all new black belts since, so we could call that a 99% compliance.
What degree of compliance would you estimate there to be in your country or state? Or if you even have some real data to crunch for a number.
The usual disclaimer:
A no-degree BB or even a white belt can of course promote someone to BB without anyone stopping them. We all know the arguments against the 2DR by now - there's no central governing body (and enforcing of the 2DR can be accused of being IBJJF-centric, even if the standard or its equivalent is older) and perhaps already a blue belt should be able to recognize black belt level when they see and feel it (so why shouldn't they be allowed to promote black belts?). Yet the 2DR is established in that a promotion by anything less than a 2:nd degree will likely be disputed quickly while I've never seen a promotion from a legitimate 2:nd degree or higher be contested based on the promoting instructor not having been a black belt for long enough and having the corresponding stripes (not counting IBJJF themselves, with new 3:rd degree and provisional BB money grabs).
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
What degree of compliance would you estimate there to be in your country or state? Or if you even have some real data to crunch for a number.
I'd say it varies considerably in the US. I think it's generally a combination of general ignorance that that's what you're "supposed" to do, and cultural aspects: we're very individualistic, generally speaking.
I would guess that in the US, probably something like 70-80% follow this tradition, but I'd also guess that this number is dropping.
I can only speak about my hometown: the greater Asheville, NC area, and I can only think of one guy at one gym who was promoted to BB by a 1-stripe BB with no oversight. Out of like 10 gyms, we're at maybe 90%.
I would guess that in the US, probably something like 70-80% follow this tradition, but I'd also guess that this number is dropping.
I can only speak about my hometown: the greater Asheville, NC area, and I can only think of one guy at one gym who was promoted to BB by a 1-stripe BB with no oversight. Out of like 10 gyms, we're at maybe 90%.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 month(s) ago
After some more thought/reflection, I would hypothesize that there would be a higher percentage of "non-standard" (non-2nd+ degree) promotions by users of this site, which I suppose is counter intuitive.
My logic is that most folks whose promotions are overseen by a larger organization/affiliation (i.e. IBJJF, GB or Alliance) don't really have a need/desire to get checked on here, so you're going to see more grapplers who aren't willing or able to get memberships, "blessings", etc., attempting to "legitimize" their ranks on beltchecker.
Just a theory though.
My logic is that most folks whose promotions are overseen by a larger organization/affiliation (i.e. IBJJF, GB or Alliance) don't really have a need/desire to get checked on here, so you're going to see more grapplers who aren't willing or able to get memberships, "blessings", etc., attempting to "legitimize" their ranks on beltchecker.
Just a theory though.
JCPurple beltVerified
4 month(s) ago
After some more thought/reflection, I would hypothesize that there would be a higher percentage of "non-standard" (non-2nd+ degree) promotions by users of this site, which I suppose is counter intuitive. My logic is that most folks whose promotions are overseen by a larger organization/affiliation (i.e. IBJJF, GB or Alliance) don't really have a need/desire to get checked on here, so you're going to see more grapplers who aren't willing or able to get memberships, "blessings", etc., attempting to "legitimize" their ranks on beltchecker. Just a theory though.
I think you're probably correct about there being more non standard promotions here than out in the world, but even though my wife and I were under a large association (Renato Tavares) for the first 11 years of our training our professor encouraged us to register with either IBJJF or here in case he got hit by a bus or something and could no longer vouch for us in person. Our gym website had all of our promotions on it, so it was pretty easy to put up a link to that page as evidence of rank. But last fall that page of the site was taken down and is no longer available. Our new gym has a similar page, but until I get promoted at that gym, which will likely take years if it happens at all, we will not have any online evidence of rank. So even though we were in a large association I think it is still worthwhile to be registered and confirmed here.
JVBlack beltVerified
3 month(s) ago
I think the rule almost entirely unenforced outside of the IBJJF. There are a lot of black belts out there who have never been certified by IBJJF or whose verified rank on the IBJJF website shows something different from their actual rank. There are some very legitimate black belts, who IBJJF knows are black belts and allows to compete at the black belt level, but will not certify because they have a felony on their record.
So what happens? Well, a lot of these black belts who IBJJF doesn't officially recognize (or who aren't recognized at the correct rank) promote their student and then have a friend in the community somewhere who is recognized by the IBJJF sign off on it. I think IBJJF knows that this happens as there are a lot of large associations with lots of black belts, but only one person is signing all the paperwork. The head of the association trusts his black belts to promote appropriately, and they have their own rules about it.
So what happens? Well, a lot of these black belts who IBJJF doesn't officially recognize (or who aren't recognized at the correct rank) promote their student and then have a friend in the community somewhere who is recognized by the IBJJF sign off on it. I think IBJJF knows that this happens as there are a lot of large associations with lots of black belts, but only one person is signing all the paperwork. The head of the association trusts his black belts to promote appropriately, and they have their own rules about it.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 month(s) ago
There are a lot of black belts out there who have never been certified by IBJJF or whose verified rank on the IBJJF website shows something different from their actual rank.
I think the original question wasn't referring to the IBJJF at all, but rather asking who follows the tradition of only allowing 2nd degree bb's (IBJJF certified or non-certified) to award other people their bb's.
CFBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 month(s) ago
I think these days it's become more common, though clearly nothing is 100%. In the old days I remember black belts telling me "once you're a black belt you promote who you want up to your own belt", but I think that sentiment is less common these days at least around me in the US
FWIW I live in the northeast US where there is a dense population of people & BJJ academies. I could see this rule being less strict in more rural areas where it might be more difficult to get access to 2nd degree BBs, but that's just my guess
FWIW I live in the northeast US where there is a dense population of people & BJJ academies. I could see this rule being less strict in more rural areas where it might be more difficult to get access to 2nd degree BBs, but that's just my guess
PBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 month(s) ago
I think these days it's become more common, though clearly nothing is 100%. In the old days I remember black belts telling me "once you're a black belt you promote who you want up to your own belt", but I think that sentiment is less common these days at least around me in the US FWIW I live in the northeast US where there is a dense population of people & BJJ academies. I could see this rule being less strict in more rural areas where it might be more difficult to get access to 2nd degree BBs, but that's just my guess
This is how I remember it nearly 20 years ago. When I started, seeing a blue belt was unusual, a purple belt was standard for an instructor, and brown and black belts were super rare.
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SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 month(s) ago
Are there perhaps regional differences, where the "rule" is consistently disregarded in some? [...] What degree of compliance would you estimate there to be in your country or state?
In the UK, I suspect the compliance level is very high, especially in England. BJJ has been in this country for almost 30 years IIRC, so I'd be surprised if there is anybody in the kind of situation where you might see non-compliance (e.g., somewhere remote with no access to higher level black belts).
I think stripes are a bit silly on any belt, but especially on a black belt where it is purely "I haven't died yet, stick another bit of tape on there." But like in other threads where you've talked about this, I still agree that six years at black belt is a sensible benchmark for promoting others to black belt.
I got my first degree a few months ago, it felt awkward and embarassing. Fortunately I did manage to avoid any kind of ceremony, my instructor did it quickly while I was visiting. Wish I didn't have to have them, but I have to admit it is an easy visual indication. In black belt promotion photos, those stripes mean that the person doing the promoting is probably capable of accurately judging if somebody else is ready for black belt.
EDIT TO CLARIFY
I think stripes are a bit silly on any belt, but especially on a black belt where it is purely "I haven't died yet, stick another bit of tape on there." But like in other threads where you've talked about this, I still agree that six years at black belt is a sensible benchmark for promoting others to black belt.
I got my first degree a few months ago, it felt awkward and embarassing. Fortunately I did manage to avoid any kind of ceremony, my instructor did it quickly while I was visiting. Wish I didn't have to have them, but I have to admit it is an easy visual indication. In black belt promotion photos, those stripes mean that the person doing the promoting is probably capable of accurately judging if somebody else is ready for black belt.
EDIT TO CLARIFY
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 month(s) ago
I have to admit it is an easy visual indication in black belt promotion photos that the person is probably legit.
It's funny how we move the goalposts like this; black belt alone should technically be the easy visual indicator that it is a legit practitioner but now we also feel like there must be some tape on it before we believe it 😄
IBlack beltVerified
2 month(s) ago
I still agree that six years at black belt is a sensible benchmark for promoting others to black belt. I got my first degree a few months ago, it felt awkward and embarassing. Fortunately I did manage to avoid any kind of ceremony, my instructor did it quickly while I was visiting. Wish I didn't have to have them, but I have to admit it is an easy visual indication in black belt promotion photos that the person is probably legit.
So do you feel like in 3 more years you will understand what makes a black belt, and right now you don't have enough experience to tell? 6 years seems like an arbitrary rule.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 month(s) ago
So do you feel like in 3 more years you will understand what makes a black belt, and right now you don't have enough experience to tell? 6 years seems like an arbitrary rule.
You could ask the same question to a purple or brown belt who is also around three years separated from their black belt but in the other direction.
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
You could ask the same question to a purple or brown belt who is also around three years separated from their black belt but in the other direction.
You mean ask a purple belt if they know what makes a blue belt? I would say it's very likely they do. It used to be more common that it was allowed for people to promote up to the belt below them - so at some point it was thought acceptable.
JJohanOP
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified
1 month(s) ago
You mean ask a purple belt if they know what makes a blue belt? I would say it's very likely they do. It used to be more common that it was allowed for people to promote up to the belt below them - so at some point it was thought acceptable.
No, ask them what makes a black belt. I've asked blue and purple belts at no-gi open mats to guess my degree and they have been correct, so why did I need to have Gigi promote me to black and not a random blue or purple belt at an open mat? Could there perhaps be that there's more to it than just being able to correctly assess whether someone is at black belt level? ;-P
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
1 month(s) ago
So do you feel like in 3 more years you will understand what makes a black belt, and right now you don't have enough experience to tell? 6 years seems like an arbitrary rule.
I agree, it IS arbitrary. But as a super broad rule that applies across everybody in BJJ, "at least six years at black belt" makes sense.
Some people will be capable of confidently judging if somebody is ready for black belt with less experience than that, some people will struggle to do it even if they have far more experience.
Some people will be capable of confidently judging if somebody is ready for black belt with less experience than that, some people will struggle to do it even if they have far more experience.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
1 month(s) ago
It's funny how we move the goalposts like this; black belt alone should technically be the easy visual indicator that it is a legit practitioner but now we also feel like there must be some tape on it before we believe it 😄
Ha, you're right: I should have clarified. I meant, those stripes act as a handy indicator that somebody should be able to legit judge if somebody else is ready for black belt.
I agree if somebody is wearing a no stripes black belt, that should be the visual indicator their personal skill at BJJ is legit.
I agree if somebody is wearing a no stripes black belt, that should be the visual indicator their personal skill at BJJ is legit.
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
No, ask them what makes a black belt. I've asked blue and purple belts at no-gi open mats to guess my degree and they have been correct, so why did I need to have Gigi promote me to black and not a random blue or purple belt at an open mat? Could there perhaps be that there's more to it than just being able to correctly assess whether someone is at black belt level? ;-P
There is no standardized assessment that makes a black belt, so you tell me what more than a correct assessment exists? Because as it stands now anyone 2 degree and above can hand a belt to anyone they choose regardless of their skill level, just because they have those stripes. I've seen some black belts with blue belt skill at best but they got their belt for political reasons from a legit senior BB.
