Rules for main forums
- Be nice
- No advertisement
- No events
- No fundraisers
- No topics asking for votes
- Only posts related to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Who's the start of your lineage, and why?
6 year(s) ago • 3511 views • 27 replies
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So here's another topic. I've noticed on the "Post your lineage" forum that people start their lineages at different people. Do you start with a Gracie, or do you go back to Maeda, or do you go back to Kano? If you go to one, why stop there? Would you go back to Fukuda Hachinosuke or Iikubo Tsunetoshi? Maybe back to Iso Mataemon Ryūkansai Minamoto no Masatari? Just curious why certain people start with certain people. Call it my inquisitive nature.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So here's another topic. I've noticed on the 'Post your lineage' forum that people start their lineages at different people. Do you start with a Gracie, or do you go back to Maeda, or do you go back to Kano? If you go to one, why stop there? Would you go back to Fukuda Hachinosuke or Iikubo Tsunetoshi? Maybe back to Iso Mataemon Ryūkansai Minamoto no Masatari? Just curious why certain people start with certain people. Call it my inquisitive nature.
I guess Kano would be the where I'd stop although I usually only think Maeda.
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I guess Kano would be the where I'd stop although I usually only think Maeda.
Would you pursue an argument that he should be awarded a posthumous red belt? Or the Brazilian equivalent of a "soke" designation? I don't know if the founding family would want to relinquish any credit or control.
JPBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I just find it interesting that the test of lineage is a big factor in the legitimacy of one's rank, but it gets awful murky once you hit the Carlos, Helio level as to who invented what, and how much influence Maeda had over which particular member of the family. Did Carlos belt Helio? Did Maeda belt Carlos? It depends on who you ask. "que X-Files theme....."
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I just find it interesting that the test of lineage is a big factor in the legitimacy of one's rank, but it gets awful murky once you hit the Carlos, Helio level as to who invented what, and how much influence Maeda had over which particular member of the family. Did Carlos belt Helio? Did Maeda belt Carlos? It depends on who you ask. 'que X-Files theme.....'
At this point none of it matters to
be honest. We will never get an accurate account no matter who tells it. The history has been muddied so badly from all sides it is impossible to discern what is true and what is pure fabrication.
be honest. We will never get an accurate account no matter who tells it. The history has been muddied so badly from all sides it is impossible to discern what is true and what is pure fabrication.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I just find it interesting that the test of lineage is a big factor in the legitimacy of one's rank, but it gets awful murky once you hit the Carlos, Helio level as to who invented what, and how much influence Maeda had over which particular member of the family. Did Carlos belt Helio? Did Maeda belt Carlos? It depends on who you ask. 'que X-Files theme.....'
https://www.youtube.com/w[...]iVyUQqkWro
Aaron Holland 6 days ago (edited)- Concerning lineage, exactly who awarded black belts to the Gracies? Did they self-promote to black belt? What was the explanation for the disparity in takedown skills - was it a mere preference of focus in the guard, or were there training and skill deficiencies relative to those training in Judo/Jiu Jitsu in other countries?
MMA Leech - Yes they awarded themselves. The Japanese judokas who faced the Gracies in the 30's were decades ahead in terms of skills, especially takedowns.
Hope this contributes more clues to your search.
Aaron Holland 6 days ago (edited)- Concerning lineage, exactly who awarded black belts to the Gracies? Did they self-promote to black belt? What was the explanation for the disparity in takedown skills - was it a mere preference of focus in the guard, or were there training and skill deficiencies relative to those training in Judo/Jiu Jitsu in other countries?
MMA Leech - Yes they awarded themselves. The Japanese judokas who faced the Gracies in the 30's were decades ahead in terms of skills, especially takedowns.
Hope this contributes more clues to your search.
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So here's another topic. I've noticed on the 'Post your lineage' forum that people start their lineages at different people. Do you start with a Gracie, or do you go back to Maeda, or do you go back to Kano? If you go to one, why stop there? Would you go back to Fukuda Hachinosuke or Iikubo Tsunetoshi? Maybe back to Iso Mataemon Ryūkansai Minamoto no Masatari? Just curious why certain people start with certain people. Call it my inquisitive nature.
I've said it before, but given Carlos and Helio apparently were total arseholes (judging by interviews with them, like the one Helio gave to Playboy, along with various other sources like Choque), I don't feel the need to list them in my lineage. So I just go back to the first guy I trained with. Meaning my lineage is Roger Gracie > Kev Capel > Me.
I also do it that way as more people are likely to have heard of Roger than Kev (though Kev is awesome), so that seems like a sensible way to list it. Also, I started out at Roger Gracie HQ, so he doesn't feel as removed as listing somebody further back in my lineage who I've got no direct relationship with at all (either because they're dead, or I just haven't trained with them).
I also do it that way as more people are likely to have heard of Roger than Kev (though Kev is awesome), so that seems like a sensible way to list it. Also, I started out at Roger Gracie HQ, so he doesn't feel as removed as listing somebody further back in my lineage who I've got no direct relationship with at all (either because they're dead, or I just haven't trained with them).
VABlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
This is a weird thing tbh, does my linage start with the guy that got me into bjj? And when you go train "under" someone else is he added to that linage or is it just who promoted you to your latest belt?
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
This is a weird thing tbh, does my linage start with the guy that got me into bjj? And when you go train 'under' someone else is he added to that linage or is it just who promoted you to your latest belt?
I have understood that if you, for example, study under a dude for a decade until say brown belt, but then change gyms and get your black belt from another professor, your previous lineage is replaced by this new person's lineage.
Weird but much more fun than with actual family trees, where you can't go shopping for lineages but are stuck with the same biological parents forever.
Weird but much more fun than with actual family trees, where you can't go shopping for lineages but are stuck with the same biological parents forever.
BNPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Personally, I would start it with Kano however my reasoning is more "nerdy" than practical. I have read the book "Mastering Jujitsu" by John Danaher and Renzo Gracie and I was extremely impressed with the philosophies espoused by Kano in terms of training methodology and approach that he brought to judo. It is something that I strive toward in my own training.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Does any other sport exist where grown ups will compare lineage of their instructors with each other and think it’s something serious and important?
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have understood that if you, for example, study under a dude for a decade until say brown belt, but then change gyms and get your black belt from another professor, your previous lineage is replaced by this new person's lineage. Weird but much more fun than with actual family trees, where you can't go shopping for lineages but are stuck with the same biological parents forever.
It happens more frequently than we'd like to admit
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Does any other sport exist where grown ups will compare lineage of their instructors with each other and think it’s something serious and important?
I had watched enough kung fu movies in my youth to know that one's master/school/style is a matter of life or death long before I even knew what BJJ was!
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Does any other sport exist where grown ups will compare lineage of their instructors with each other and think it’s something serious and important?
I don't see /hear about this sort of thing in wrestling, boxing or muay thai. Usually the direct link to their immediate coach/teacher and not traced all the way back to the dawn of time. That's usually the habits of traditional martial arts where it seems that the fallacy of leaning too heavily on the combative reputation of the teacher's teacher's and so on is common practice
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I don't see /hear about this sort of thing in wrestling, boxing or muay thai. Usually the direct link to their immediate coach/teacher and not traced all the way back to the dawn of time. That's usually the habits of traditional martial arts where it seems that the fallacy of leaning too heavily on the combative reputation of the teacher's teacher's and so on is common practice
"My style was once used on the battlefields 1000s of years ago, so of course my techniques are deadly!"
Edited 6 year(s) ago
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
'My style was once used on the battlefields 1000s of years ago, so of course my techniques are deadly!'
precisely!
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Speaking of kung fu movies (I'm a huge nerd!), I still think that BJJ can give a much more satisfying "kung fu movie" experience that training actual kung fu, especially if you compete.
You train hard to beat disciplines from other schools. Typically the schools or at least individual fighters do have a certain styles, such as competitors from some school are known to be great passers. There are rivalries, like you lose 3 comps in a row to the same person, then try to figure out & train super hard to beat them the next time. You study manuals (online instructionals these days) to acquire new moves or seek out masters of certain techniques to learn from them. The best guard passing/sweeping exchanges with grip fighting and techniques to counter techniques resemble much more those furios kung fu movie fights than what happens in any "kung fu championships". And you hopefully get to kill the opponent in the end, although if he taps out or the referee intervenes, not really.
You train hard to beat disciplines from other schools. Typically the schools or at least individual fighters do have a certain styles, such as competitors from some school are known to be great passers. There are rivalries, like you lose 3 comps in a row to the same person, then try to figure out & train super hard to beat them the next time. You study manuals (online instructionals these days) to acquire new moves or seek out masters of certain techniques to learn from them. The best guard passing/sweeping exchanges with grip fighting and techniques to counter techniques resemble much more those furios kung fu movie fights than what happens in any "kung fu championships". And you hopefully get to kill the opponent in the end, although if he taps out or the referee intervenes, not really.
BNPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Does any other sport exist where grown ups will compare lineage of their instructors with each other and think it’s something serious and important?
It is common in other sports (American football, basketball, ice hockey) -- at least in the US to refer to a "coaching tree" which is a similar idea.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
It is common in other sports (American football, basketball, ice hockey) -- at least in the US to refer to a 'coaching tree' which is a similar idea.
So maybe it's an American culture thing? Never heard if this in my sports life in Europe, at least (apart martial arts)
JBBrown beltVerified
MBrown beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I recently kind of gave up thinking about lineage and roots, because
I learned so much from various Coaches/Teachers from different lineages and affiliations and everyone helped me to get better at different parts of the art.
Life, relations, point of views and circumstances may change over time and so lineage, Affiliation, Coaches too....
I am lucky and happy to have coaches from different lineages who teach me and they are cool with that.
I learned so much from various Coaches/Teachers from different lineages and affiliations and everyone helped me to get better at different parts of the art.
Life, relations, point of views and circumstances may change over time and so lineage, Affiliation, Coaches too....
I am lucky and happy to have coaches from different lineages who teach me and they are cool with that.
VABlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
It is common in other sports (American football, basketball, ice hockey) -- at least in the US to refer to a 'coaching tree' which is a similar idea.
I think what your thinking of is having mentors right? Or saying they trained with a specific coach but I have never heard of any of the big stars having a linage in the same sense as in bjj
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I tend to say I'm a Carlson guy. Helio & Carlos were unsavory individuals. Carlson - by all accounts - was a stand up bloke, and most of his teaching style & mentality was passed on to me by my teacher. Eventhough I never met the man, I'm quite sure some of his coaching oneliners have made their way into my own teaching style.
JABlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Does any other sport exist where grown ups will compare lineage of their instructors with each other and think it’s something serious and important?
The Ol' "My Dad can beat up YOUR Dad" argument. :)
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
My lineage stops with whoever invented the berimbolo. Cause that's the only move I know/do.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I know what you mean!
You know, I know, others know but choose to conveniently overlook facts and ride with the 'new' facts *oh well*
SCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
So Danielson was MiyagiDo Lineage, then was Cobra Kai for all of 5 seconds in Karate Kid 3.... Then back to MiyagiDo.
Actual reply: I have always thought of Kano as the start of my lineage. But like John Byrne said The Ol' "My Dad can beat up YOUR Dad" argument.
Actual reply: I have always thought of Kano as the start of my lineage. But like John Byrne said The Ol' "My Dad can beat up YOUR Dad" argument.
