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Tapping/subs etiquette...
6 year(s) ago • 7288 views • 51 replies
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So I made a whitebelts elbow do a sound like cloth getting ripped yesterday :/
And I'm still feeling bad about it.
Was a guest instructor in a small friendly club willing to roll everyone (mostly WBs).
There was a young wrestler who had zero restraint / timidity and was spazzing pretty hard but I was ok with it. Couldn't get sweeps got sprawled on couple of times but then got a razor armbar from open guard I was holding on and then slowly starting to apply more and more pressure and then the dude also yanked and the elbow made the sound of cloth tearing. I let go and was like wow dude you gotta tap a bit earlier but he was like naw I'm okay.
Should've I just let it go and continue to play positions? I mean as a BB closing in on 40 I shouldn't care about winning and proving myself? :/
In the end of the day - it's a pointless injury I too could've avoided.
And I'm still feeling bad about it.
Was a guest instructor in a small friendly club willing to roll everyone (mostly WBs).
There was a young wrestler who had zero restraint / timidity and was spazzing pretty hard but I was ok with it. Couldn't get sweeps got sprawled on couple of times but then got a razor armbar from open guard I was holding on and then slowly starting to apply more and more pressure and then the dude also yanked and the elbow made the sound of cloth tearing. I let go and was like wow dude you gotta tap a bit earlier but he was like naw I'm okay.
Should've I just let it go and continue to play positions? I mean as a BB closing in on 40 I shouldn't care about winning and proving myself? :/
In the end of the day - it's a pointless injury I too could've avoided.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
SMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Situations that like suck for everyone... I think, as long as you weren't trying to injure him, you shouldn't concern yourself with it.
Some people just don't tap - especially if they think they are "TUFF"!
Some people just don't tap - especially if they think they are "TUFF"!
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
There was a young wrestler who had zero restraint / timidity and was spazzing pretty hard but I was ok with it. Couldn't get sweeps got sprawled on couple of times but then got a razor armbar from closed guard I was holding on and then slowly starting to apply more and more pressure and then the dude also yanked and the elbow made the sound of cloth tearing. I let go and was like wow dude you gotta tap a bit earlier but he was like naw I'm okay. Should've I just let it go and continue to play positions?
Personally, I would always rather let go if I think the other person is going to refuse to tap, then try and work towards a 'safer' submission like a choke, or just attempt to sit on them until the round ends.
However, I am also super picky about training partners, so that's easy for me to say. Plus I don't believe anybody can honestly claim they never have a little voice in their head urging them to tap people, particularly if it is somebody being annoying and/or super aggressive. ;)
However, I am also super picky about training partners, so that's easy for me to say. Plus I don't believe anybody can honestly claim they never have a little voice in their head urging them to tap people, particularly if it is somebody being annoying and/or super aggressive. ;)
DCBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I would've done the same thing in your situation and I'd feel bad to but... Circumstances permitting.
I would make a mental note to choke that mother fucker every roll moving forward. (who doesn't like chokes?).
If he doesn't tap to a choke he looks like a fool or if he continually leaves it too long the accumulation of chokes could make him pass out on the side of the mat. I've seen that happen before after a training session centred around chokes. (WBs wanting to know its a "legit" choke).
To be honest though when visiting a gym, unless I visit frequently, I mostly work on control and escapes. My training partner would need to have boarder line fed me the armbar for me to take it and be a dooche for me to gun for the chokes as mentioned.
I would make a mental note to choke that mother fucker every roll moving forward. (who doesn't like chokes?).
If he doesn't tap to a choke he looks like a fool or if he continually leaves it too long the accumulation of chokes could make him pass out on the side of the mat. I've seen that happen before after a training session centred around chokes. (WBs wanting to know its a "legit" choke).
To be honest though when visiting a gym, unless I visit frequently, I mostly work on control and escapes. My training partner would need to have boarder line fed me the armbar for me to take it and be a dooche for me to gun for the chokes as mentioned.
JABlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Difficult one Jorgen,
I tend to try to catch and release to see how many subs I can find in a round, but if the dude tried to pull his arm free while you had control of it, you can only anticipate a certain level of foolishness.
Every roll is an education, some lessons are harder than the others.
I tend to try to catch and release to see how many subs I can find in a round, but if the dude tried to pull his arm free while you had control of it, you can only anticipate a certain level of foolishness.
Every roll is an education, some lessons are harder than the others.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
they say pain is a good teacher...
SZBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I had a similar experience while visiting another gym while on a business trip. At the time, I was a purple belt rolling with a blue belt. I locked up an Americana sweep. He continued to fight for side control instead of giving in to the pressure on his arm/shoulder. As soon as I heard a load pop from his arm, I immediately let go and apologized. I felt really bad. I also explained the situation and apologized to his instructor before leaving.
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I don't do armbars in practice as it's the only submission I can think of where I can't actually feel the proper pressure to know when to stop the submission to avoid injuring my opponent if they are stupid.
For example Kimura's Americana's etc I can always feel when to stop. You can feel that tense pressure your applying. Even in tournaments I sometimes have to stop the pressure and wait for them to tap or I would injure them. I have had a couple blue belts I was kimuring not want to tap and I had to strain there rotator cuff to the point of near injury because they panicked or didn't want to tap. I still had to hold back or I would of injured them badly and that was blue belts.
Foot locks I can also feel that same pressure very easy to know when to stop...be it a bone brake mechanic or a twisting or tearing mechanic you can sorta just feel it .
Bicep or calf slicers they are going to tap before they get injured.
And chokes be it RNC or Triangle or any collar lapel choke your not really in risk of injuring your opponent, they will either go to sleep or tap.
Really the only thing I can think of that makes me feel unsafe in applying to much pressure are Armbars and Kneebars just because of the mechanic of how the joint works in the knee and elbow and never really knowing that max pressure that will injure my opponent so I just don't do armbars and kneebars at least in practice. Even if I go for a sorta Armbar motion Ill use the bicep slicer instead from the armbar position or sit up for a mounted triangle if I'm not able to transition back to a kimura grip.
I also got so paranoid of armbars as my only severe injury from jiujitsu was via an armbar in ebi overtime rules where I got my elbow snapped from only having 9 seconds to escape and let go of the grip just trying to pull it out and got it snapped from a dumb mistake. I got to where I don't ever allow anyone to armbar me...ever because I really know how dangerous it can be especially from a spazzy person trying to win at all cost. I literally haven't let anyone armbar me in over 6 months protecting my elbows at all costs. No underhooks.
I also have stopped really caring about getting submissions that I already know that I can do in competition and just working on catch and release and the grips that I know I can transition to the sub and then work my way to other submissions that I have not gotten as much in tournaments and just letting my opponents also work by letting them choke me or go to whatever position they want to go to and then just working out of it.
Unless they are large enough and spazzing out to the point of possibly injuring me in which case ill just sweep them as quick as I can and just put pressure on them until they calm down and the moment they start spazzing out again do the same thing kinda like sorta taming a dog to behave. They slowly understand that maybe they need to calm down and relax and if not ill actually tell them verbally to just relax and not waste all your energy and breathe.
And when I do any submission in general I try to do it as slow and technical as possible focusing more on the absolute control of my opponent to the point to where i can just calmly with ease regardless of how spazzy they are putting them in a position where they can't do anything except watch me make them tap in slow motion like they are in the matrix... except for bow and arrow choke for some reason that choke seems like it requires literally zero technique to work once set up and is not as fun in slow motion. lol
Also I think being 200 pounds helps though. I notice a lot of smaller guys 150ish pounds they rely on armbars and triangles as almost like a defense mechanic against bigger guys who are being really aggressive and not watching there elbow positioning and cling onto those armbars like its a life line.
For example Kimura's Americana's etc I can always feel when to stop. You can feel that tense pressure your applying. Even in tournaments I sometimes have to stop the pressure and wait for them to tap or I would injure them. I have had a couple blue belts I was kimuring not want to tap and I had to strain there rotator cuff to the point of near injury because they panicked or didn't want to tap. I still had to hold back or I would of injured them badly and that was blue belts.
Foot locks I can also feel that same pressure very easy to know when to stop...be it a bone brake mechanic or a twisting or tearing mechanic you can sorta just feel it .
Bicep or calf slicers they are going to tap before they get injured.
And chokes be it RNC or Triangle or any collar lapel choke your not really in risk of injuring your opponent, they will either go to sleep or tap.
Really the only thing I can think of that makes me feel unsafe in applying to much pressure are Armbars and Kneebars just because of the mechanic of how the joint works in the knee and elbow and never really knowing that max pressure that will injure my opponent so I just don't do armbars and kneebars at least in practice. Even if I go for a sorta Armbar motion Ill use the bicep slicer instead from the armbar position or sit up for a mounted triangle if I'm not able to transition back to a kimura grip.
I also got so paranoid of armbars as my only severe injury from jiujitsu was via an armbar in ebi overtime rules where I got my elbow snapped from only having 9 seconds to escape and let go of the grip just trying to pull it out and got it snapped from a dumb mistake. I got to where I don't ever allow anyone to armbar me...ever because I really know how dangerous it can be especially from a spazzy person trying to win at all cost. I literally haven't let anyone armbar me in over 6 months protecting my elbows at all costs. No underhooks.
I also have stopped really caring about getting submissions that I already know that I can do in competition and just working on catch and release and the grips that I know I can transition to the sub and then work my way to other submissions that I have not gotten as much in tournaments and just letting my opponents also work by letting them choke me or go to whatever position they want to go to and then just working out of it.
Unless they are large enough and spazzing out to the point of possibly injuring me in which case ill just sweep them as quick as I can and just put pressure on them until they calm down and the moment they start spazzing out again do the same thing kinda like sorta taming a dog to behave. They slowly understand that maybe they need to calm down and relax and if not ill actually tell them verbally to just relax and not waste all your energy and breathe.
And when I do any submission in general I try to do it as slow and technical as possible focusing more on the absolute control of my opponent to the point to where i can just calmly with ease regardless of how spazzy they are putting them in a position where they can't do anything except watch me make them tap in slow motion like they are in the matrix... except for bow and arrow choke for some reason that choke seems like it requires literally zero technique to work once set up and is not as fun in slow motion. lol
Also I think being 200 pounds helps though. I notice a lot of smaller guys 150ish pounds they rely on armbars and triangles as almost like a defense mechanic against bigger guys who are being really aggressive and not watching there elbow positioning and cling onto those armbars like its a life line.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
So I made a whitebelts elbow do a sound like cloth getting ripped yesterday :/ And I'm still feeling bad about it. Was a guest instructor in a small friendly club willing to roll everyone (mostly WBs). There was a young wrestler who had zero restraint / timidity and was spazzing pretty hard but I was ok with it. Couldn't get sweeps got sprawled on couple of times but then got a razor armbar from open guard I was holding on and then slowly starting to apply more and more pressure and then the dude also yanked and the elbow made the sound of cloth tearing. I let go and was like wow dude you gotta tap a bit earlier but he was like naw I'm okay. Should've I just let it go and continue to play positions? I mean as a BB closing in on 40 I shouldn't care about winning and proving myself? :/ In the end of the day - it's a pointless injury I too could've avoided.
Some folks will say you are the black belt and it's your responsibility as a senior belt...blah blah blah.
Sounds like he was being careless. When you are careless accidents happen. It is a good lesson to learn early on.
You were not being malicious and didn't crank it to show him who is boss so your conscience should be clear.
Better he learn now than later when he hurts someone seriously because of his actions.
White Belt : Non Believer - Heretic - constantly demands proof and ponders the eternal question of "what if?"
Blue Belt : Full Convert: True Believer and Fanatical Monk - Missionary spreading the word of Jiu Jitsu - still manages to get a "what if?" in occasionaly
Purple Belt : Warrior Class Monk not interested in converting the non believer - only interested in punishing them - fully self absorbed and breaks every conventional rule
Brown Belt : Much like a "maester" - seeks deeper bjj scientific knowledge and refinement- willing to share with the other classes of Monks - realizes he knows nothing
Black Belt : The Jedi of BJJ - knows he knows nothing - seeks an even deeper refinement of technique and seeks the secrets of leverage - shares everything. Also very much like Gator because: "Gator don't take no shit." LOL
Sounds like he was being careless. When you are careless accidents happen. It is a good lesson to learn early on.
You were not being malicious and didn't crank it to show him who is boss so your conscience should be clear.
Better he learn now than later when he hurts someone seriously because of his actions.
White Belt : Non Believer - Heretic - constantly demands proof and ponders the eternal question of "what if?"
Blue Belt : Full Convert: True Believer and Fanatical Monk - Missionary spreading the word of Jiu Jitsu - still manages to get a "what if?" in occasionaly
Purple Belt : Warrior Class Monk not interested in converting the non believer - only interested in punishing them - fully self absorbed and breaks every conventional rule
Brown Belt : Much like a "maester" - seeks deeper bjj scientific knowledge and refinement- willing to share with the other classes of Monks - realizes he knows nothing
Black Belt : The Jedi of BJJ - knows he knows nothing - seeks an even deeper refinement of technique and seeks the secrets of leverage - shares everything. Also very much like Gator because: "Gator don't take no shit." LOL
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
It is actually a tough position especially as a guest instructor.. My policy is to finish people like that with a choke and after having a discussion about tapping. I catch and release a lot especially when traveling and training as a guest. By the same token we shouldn't be expected to have to protect ourselves from others egos and at the same time protect them from themselves. The concept of tapping and protecting your own limbs fall on the individual as it is a core part of the training environment .
This is a tough question and I am actually a big strong guy so I have an easier time controlling a spazz than many people. Bottom line let it go you had no intent in the incident and it was on him
This is a tough question and I am actually a big strong guy so I have an easier time controlling a spazz than many people. Bottom line let it go you had no intent in the incident and it was on him
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Some folks will say you are the black belt and it's your responsibility as a senior belt...blah blah blah. Sounds like he was being careless. When you are careless accidents happen. It is a good lesson to learn early on. You were not being malicious and didn't crank it to show him who is boss so your conscience should be clear. Better he learn now than later when he hurts someone seriously because of his actions. White Belt : Non Believer - Heretic - constantly demands proof and ponders the eternal question of 'what if?' Blue Belt : Full Convert: True Believer and Fanatical Monk - Missionary spreading the word of Jiu Jitsu - still manages to get a 'what if?' in occasionaly Purple Belt : Warrior Class Monk not interested in converting the non believer - only interested in punishing them - fully self absorbed and breaks every conventional rule Brown Belt : Much like a 'maester' - seeks deeper bjj scientific knowledge and refinement- willing to share with the other classes of Monks - realizes he knows nothing Black Belt : The Jedi of BJJ - knows he knows nothing - seeks an even deeper refinement of technique and seeks the secrets of leverage - shares everything. Also very much like Gator because: 'Gator don't take no shit.' LOL
Love this stealing
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Tough situation. My armbars suck so the only relatable experience i have is getting people in heel hooks, I don't apply the pressure, just secure the position. I normally tell them to tap, if they manage to kick my grip off then i have a polite word about it. If they don't believe me then let's have another round at 100% intensity.
Most people are cool about it, you can't help all the people though. If he won't tap to a black belt armbar then his probability of completing the necessary ~10 years of training to become a black belt is pretty much 0%.
Don't feel bad though, if it wasn't you then someone else would get him. I've done a seminar with this guy, lovely chap, but guess again if you think he's giving out free armbar escapes to protect the egos of white belts.
Most people are cool about it, you can't help all the people though. If he won't tap to a black belt armbar then his probability of completing the necessary ~10 years of training to become a black belt is pretty much 0%.
Don't feel bad though, if it wasn't you then someone else would get him. I've done a seminar with this guy, lovely chap, but guess again if you think he's giving out free armbar escapes to protect the egos of white belts.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I just assume that everyone's arm is extremely flexible. Then I take their arm and attempt to hyper-extend it, slowly and in a controlled manner, until they tap. If I am unable to do this in a controlled manner, or if they tap, then I stop. I don't care what color belt they're wearing.
ANBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
dont worry Jorgen... its hard
keeping your focus as martial artist up at all time, feeling everyone and taking care
its the path to true mastery, everyone has different bodies, different breaking points
and no matter how sharp your senses you cant always feel right away when something will be damaged
especially with a new unknown trainingpartner, besides some of those noobs dont even know their own physical limits yet...
feeling slightly bad for it already shows that you keep the true spirtit of jiu jitsu up enough...
dont let it get you down.
also in some rare cases you are doing good,
because you are fixing their mind by breaking their body
(im sorry, sometimes i just love sounding like a old kung fu master)
and its way better to be broken by a nice careful person in such a situation, who actually lets go once weird sounds come out of the limbs than by someone who is just as much of a noob and just keeps jerking the lock
so in a way you saved him from a worse injury...
So I made a whitebelts elbow do a sound like cloth getting ripped yesterday :/ And I'm still feeling bad about it. Was a guest instructor in a small friendly club willing to roll everyone (mostly WBs). There was a young wrestler who had zero restraint / timidity and was spazzing pretty hard but I was ok with it. Couldn't get sweeps got sprawled on couple of times but then got a razor armbar from open guard I was holding on and then slowly starting to apply more and more pressure and then the dude also yanked and the elbow made the sound of cloth tearing. I let go and was like wow dude you gotta tap a bit earlier but he was like naw I'm okay. Should've I just let it go and continue to play positions? I mean as a BB closing in on 40 I shouldn't care about winning and proving myself? :/ In the end of the day - it's a pointless injury I too could've avoided.
dont worry Jorgen... its hard
keeping your focus as martial artist up at all time, feeling everyone and taking care
its the path to true mastery, everyone has different bodies, different breaking points
and no matter how sharp your senses you cant always feel right away when something will be damaged
especially with a new unknown trainingpartner, besides some of those noobs dont even know their own physical limits yet...
feeling slightly bad for it already shows that you keep the true spirtit of jiu jitsu up enough...
dont let it get you down.
also in some rare cases you are doing good,
because you are fixing their mind by breaking their body
(im sorry, sometimes i just love sounding like a old kung fu master)
and its way better to be broken by a nice careful person in such a situation, who actually lets go once weird sounds come out of the limbs than by someone who is just as much of a noob and just keeps jerking the lock
so in a way you saved him from a worse injury...
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I don't know if this helps:
When I was a newish blue belt, I was rolling with a 'not so new' white belt (MD/doctor by profession) and I had his foot in a straight ankle lock (but didn't apply it) but it was tight - I was facing the ceiling and so was he, but he decided to spazz and twist out of the lock, his body moved 180 but his foot didn't and I felt all his knee ligaments pop and tear - before I could let go - but it was too late and I felt his leg whip back into position as I released the grip. Yes, I felt terrible about that, but I didn't move (or if I did it was to apply an ankle lock) but no bad feelings and he's back on his feet (but didn't continue training as he joined the Medicine without Borders) and continued his medical practice. Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes it's beyond your control.
When I was a newish blue belt, I was rolling with a 'not so new' white belt (MD/doctor by profession) and I had his foot in a straight ankle lock (but didn't apply it) but it was tight - I was facing the ceiling and so was he, but he decided to spazz and twist out of the lock, his body moved 180 but his foot didn't and I felt all his knee ligaments pop and tear - before I could let go - but it was too late and I felt his leg whip back into position as I released the grip. Yes, I felt terrible about that, but I didn't move (or if I did it was to apply an ankle lock) but no bad feelings and he's back on his feet (but didn't continue training as he joined the Medicine without Borders) and continued his medical practice. Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes it's beyond your control.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I was facing the ceiling and so was he, but he decided to spazz and twist out of the lock, his body moved 180 but his foot didn't and I felt all his knee ligaments pop and tear - before I could let go - but it was too late
Yeah, this is EXACTLY why I never, ever put a leglock on somebody, I'm terrified of something like that happening.
Saying that, that's with the exception of kneebars, for some reason. Those feel safer, I guess because I'm wrapping most of my body along the length of their leg.
Saying that, that's with the exception of kneebars, for some reason. Those feel safer, I guess because I'm wrapping most of my body along the length of their leg.
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I don't know if this helps: When I was a newish blue belt, I was rolling with a 'not so new' white belt (MD/doctor by profession) and I had his foot in a straight ankle lock (but didn't apply it) but it was tight - I was facing the ceiling and so was he, but he decided to spazz and twist out of the lock, his body moved 180 but his foot didn't and I felt all his knee ligaments pop and tear - before I could let go - but it was too late and I felt his leg whip back into position as I released the grip. Yes, I felt terrible about that, but I didn't move (or if I did it was to apply an ankle lock) but no bad feelings and he's back on his feet (but didn't continue training as he joined the Medicine without Borders) and continued his medical practice. Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes it's beyond your control.
Yea I put a lot of people in straight ankles and I'm not really even trying to finish it but let them try to work there way out of it kind of catch and release and re-establish the grip back and forth in inside and outside ashi just playing around at least in practice and I have had to let go several times because if I didn't they would of really twisted there knee bad. Also for the same reason I never go belly down in practice.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Yeah, this is EXACTLY why I never, ever put a leglock on somebody, I'm terrified of something like that happening. Saying that, that's with the exception of kneebars, for some reason. Those feel safer, I guess because I'm wrapping most of my body along the length of their leg.
If i have no sympathy for those people, does that make me a bad person?
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
If i have no sympathy for those people, does that make me a bad person?
If it's a white belt yes. lol a blue belt or higher should know better.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Yeah, this is EXACTLY why I never, ever put a leglock on somebody, I'm terrified of something like that happening. Saying that, that's with the exception of kneebars, for some reason. Those feel safer, I guess because I'm wrapping most of my body along the length of their leg.
Having learnt from that experience, I have since put on a hold (since I have empirical evidence that my locks are sold) and let people escape, even if they thought they "beat me" because I don't want to be the reason they can't walk properly again ... and my ego can take it :) Live and let live, until I decide otherwise :)
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Having learnt from that experience, I have since put on a hold (since I have empirical evidence that my locks are sold) and let people escape, even if they thought they 'beat me' because I don't want to be the reason they can't walk properly again ... and my ego can take it :) Live and let live, until I decide otherwise :)
I'm glad I finally matured to the point to where once I know I got my A or B submission setup that there's no need to finish it and ill just let it go and work on getting better at something else that I am not as good at. Also letting people work who are close to my skill level so I can actually get better at certain escape positions as if I played my guard at 100% I would never even get the chance to work on my escapes most of the time. Only took over a year. lol
I feel like I have gotten way better the past 3 months since I started working on adding C & D etc options to various positions or a B in some areas where I only had an A.
I feel like I have gotten way better the past 3 months since I started working on adding C & D etc options to various positions or a B in some areas where I only had an A.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
If i have no sympathy for those people, does that make me a bad person?
Yep! But I already knew you were horrible, seeing as you love both leglocks and nogi. Such depravity. *shudders* :P
DBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
If i have no sympathy for those people, does that make me a bad person?
This right here is why white belts should not be taught heel hooks lol.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Yep! But I already knew you were horrible, seeing as you love both leglocks and nogi. Such depravity. *shudders* :P
Well i was talking about armbars, when it comes to leg locks people are only going to hurt themselves (against me) if they start rolling around like an idiot. I'd get the position but not apply the squeeze for a heel hook, and i'd show everyone an escape that they are welcome to try. None of those escapes would be to roll across the mat like a fish out of water. I'd explicitly tell them not to do that and if they still do it then it's once again hard to feel sorry for them. by the way, I really don't love leg locks at all, it's more that a heel hook is the most powerful submission there is and you don't want to end up like BJ Penn did against Ryan Hall. I don't think butt scooting should be allowed, nor guard pulling but that's another thread.
SZBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Also letting people work who are close to my skill level so I can actually get better at certain escape positions as if I played my guard at 100% I would never even get the chance to work on my escapes most of the time.
It sounds like you're either underestimating your skill level or your training partners aren't going hard enough. I mean no disrespect, but I just can't imagine having an almost impassable guard as a white belt.
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
It sounds like you're either underestimating your skill level or your training partners aren't going hard enough. I mean no disrespect, but I just can't imagine having an almost impassable guard as a white belt.
I can literally stop some purple belts from passing my guard entirely....especially if they are not competition purple belts if I want. Not trying to brag, its just what I specialize in. Especially if they are not the aggressive type that's not willing to take chances. What gives me the hardest times are people who truly know how to use consistent constant pressure on the quads and fatigue the quad muscles or have the strength to actually close all the space. A purple belt that is not near my size or strength is going to have a very hard time against me if they are not aggressive and know how to use there weight and control my legs. Now obviously a competition purple belt should destroy my world and everything in it and smile slowly while doing it...
There is a huge difference in general between people who compete and people who don't compete. And also people who are not aggressive and people that are aggressive. You combine that and I'd be willing to wager that I can stop any purple belt who doesn't compete and lacks aggression or the willingness to take risks for 5 minutes easy without much effort. And prob a 10 to 25% that I could actually tap them if I want...I've literally practiced the hook sweep over 10,000 times and prob have a better efficiency at it then some black belts. Does that make me a black belt or blue belt...no. Because I lack the overall well roundness and general knowledge of those that are.
I don't really care about belts. In general I think they are stupid. The only reason why I ever even care is when certain competitions will not let you compete up in rank to challenge yourself as I am tired of being told that I am sand bagged I've stopped competing against white belts period and only compete at tournaments that let me go against blues.
Again I don't really care about winning... I prefer to lose at least once a tournament so I have something to work on as normally someone will show you what your weakest at and then I can go back to practice and work on those weakness's that my opponents try to take advantage of. But just because your a purple belt or even a brown belt doesn't mean that you can pass my guard. Maybe you can. But maybe I can stop you, to think you can pass all white belts guards is I would say arrogant. I mean you should be able to...but I guarantee you there are some white belts that will give you trouble especially if they have already competed in over 100 matches regardless of the opponents competed against.
And again I am a white belt...over 90% of white belts can not get past my guard unless I let them. Which that is very boring then If all I have to train with is white belts I have to let them work so I can also work on other things... At least 50% of blue belts will still really struggle to get past my guard and prob even 20% of blue belts can not get past my guard unless I let them work as well. Not bragging just my reality so in order for me to get better I have to let people work sometimes. If I just crush people or never let them get past my guard it hinders my growth. Even though I will never be Rickson Gracie I like letting people work at the start of a roll then working my way out of it then kinda starting the roll like most people do after I work out of something because at least then I will have gotten something out of each roll instead of just trying to win straight from the start and maybe not getting anything out of the roll at all. Once I successfully escape or counter whatever there initial plan is then I will go on the offensive if they are near my skill level. This ensures that I get something unique out of each roll hopefully.
There is a huge difference in general between people who compete and people who don't compete. And also people who are not aggressive and people that are aggressive. You combine that and I'd be willing to wager that I can stop any purple belt who doesn't compete and lacks aggression or the willingness to take risks for 5 minutes easy without much effort. And prob a 10 to 25% that I could actually tap them if I want...I've literally practiced the hook sweep over 10,000 times and prob have a better efficiency at it then some black belts. Does that make me a black belt or blue belt...no. Because I lack the overall well roundness and general knowledge of those that are.
I don't really care about belts. In general I think they are stupid. The only reason why I ever even care is when certain competitions will not let you compete up in rank to challenge yourself as I am tired of being told that I am sand bagged I've stopped competing against white belts period and only compete at tournaments that let me go against blues.
Again I don't really care about winning... I prefer to lose at least once a tournament so I have something to work on as normally someone will show you what your weakest at and then I can go back to practice and work on those weakness's that my opponents try to take advantage of. But just because your a purple belt or even a brown belt doesn't mean that you can pass my guard. Maybe you can. But maybe I can stop you, to think you can pass all white belts guards is I would say arrogant. I mean you should be able to...but I guarantee you there are some white belts that will give you trouble especially if they have already competed in over 100 matches regardless of the opponents competed against.
And again I am a white belt...over 90% of white belts can not get past my guard unless I let them. Which that is very boring then If all I have to train with is white belts I have to let them work so I can also work on other things... At least 50% of blue belts will still really struggle to get past my guard and prob even 20% of blue belts can not get past my guard unless I let them work as well. Not bragging just my reality so in order for me to get better I have to let people work sometimes. If I just crush people or never let them get past my guard it hinders my growth. Even though I will never be Rickson Gracie I like letting people work at the start of a roll then working my way out of it then kinda starting the roll like most people do after I work out of something because at least then I will have gotten something out of each roll instead of just trying to win straight from the start and maybe not getting anything out of the roll at all. Once I successfully escape or counter whatever there initial plan is then I will go on the offensive if they are near my skill level. This ensures that I get something unique out of each roll hopefully.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
by the way, I really don't love leg locks at all, it's more that a heel hook is the most powerful submission there is and you don't want to end up like BJ Penn did against Ryan Hall. I don't think butt scooting should be allowed, nor guard pulling but that's another thread.
Ha - interesting, I totally thought you were a mega leglock guy. Yeah, as much I am are incredibly scared of heel hooks (giving or receiving), it's clearly a top rank submission. Are you planning on going to the leglock camp that Niels is running in Leuven, which got postponed to next year? I have a ticket, so depending when it is rescheduled to, I might still subject myself to a week of leglocks and nogi (would be good for me, I have to learn it some time ;) ), but would also be very tempted to switch to the defence camp. That's way more up my street. :D
If I competed, I would 100% pull guard. Takedowns are yet another thing I put in the "scary and painful" box. :P
If I competed, I would 100% pull guard. Takedowns are yet another thing I put in the "scary and painful" box. :P
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I can literally stop some purple belts from passing my guard entirely....especially if they are not competition purple belts if I want. Not trying to brag, its just what I specialize in. Especially if they are not the aggressive type that's not willing to take chances. What gives me the hardest times are people who truly know how to use consistent constant pressure on the quads and fatigue the quad muscles or have the strength to actually close all the space. A purple belt that is not near my size or strength is going to have a very hard time against me if they are not aggressive and know how to use there weight and control my legs. Now obviously a competition purple belt should destroy my world and everything in it and smile slowly while doing it... There is a huge difference in general between people who compete and people who don't compete. And also people who are not aggressive and people that are aggressive. You combine that and I'd be willing to wager that I can stop any purple belt who doesn't compete and lacks aggression or the willingness to take risks for 5 minutes easy without much effort. And prob a 10 to 25% that I could actually tap them if I want...I've literally practiced the hook sweep over 10,000 times and prob have a better efficiency at it then some black belts. Does that make me a black belt or blue belt...no. Because I lack the overall well roundness and general knowledge of those that are. I don't really care about belts. In general I think they are stupid. The only reason why I ever even care is when certain competitions will not let you compete up in rank to challenge yourself as I am tired of being told that I am sand bagged I've stopped competing against white belts period and only compete at tournaments that let me go against blues. Again I don't really care about winning... I prefer to lose at least once a tournament so I have something to work on as normally someone will show you what your weakest at and then I can go back to practice and work on those weakness's that my opponents try to take advantage of. But just because your a purple belt or even a brown belt doesn't mean that you can pass my guard. Maybe you can. But maybe I can stop you, to think you can pass all white belts guards is I would say arrogant. I mean you should be able to...but I guarantee you there are some white belts that will give you trouble especially if they have already competed in over 100 matches regardless of the opponents competed against. And again I am a white belt...over 90% of white belts can not get past my guard unless I let them. Which that is very boring then If all I have to train with is white belts I have to let them work so I can also work on other things... At least 50% of blue belts will still really struggle to get past my guard and prob even 20% of blue belts can not get past my guard unless I let them work as well. Not bragging just my reality so in order for me to get better I have to let people work sometimes. If I just crush people or never let them get past my guard it hinders my growth. Even though I will never be Rickson Gracie I like letting people work at the start of a roll then working my way out of it then kinda starting the roll like most people do after I work out of something because at least then I will have gotten something out of each roll instead of just trying to win straight from the start and maybe not getting anything out of the roll at all. Once I successfully escape or counter whatever there initial plan is then I will go on the offensive if they are near my skill level. This ensures that I get something unique out of each roll hopefully.
I rolled with a competitive cyclist when I was a WB and it was a painful experience being stuck in his closed guard. Quads o'doom ...
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Ha - interesting, I totally thought you were a mega leglock guy. Yeah, as much I am are incredibly scared of heel hooks (giving or receiving), it's clearly a top rank submission. Are you planning on going to the leglock camp that Niels is running in Leuven, which got postponed to next year? I have a ticket, so depending when it is rescheduled to, I might still subject myself to a week of leglocks and nogi (would be good for me, I have to learn it some time ;) ), but would also be very tempted to switch to the defence camp. That's way more up my street. :D If I competed, I would 100% pull guard. Takedowns are yet another thing I put in the 'scary and painful' box. :P
I'm not scared of heel hooks much more than anything else, armbars and kimuras more scary to me because of my personal injury history. I just think everyone needs a very solid understanding of how heel hooks work, where they are hit from and what your window and method to escape is. Heel hooks don't work without securing the knee line, so you start your escape when your knee becomes trapped. If you haven't cleared the knee line by the time they've dug out your heel then you need to be tapping like a woodpecker. I'm far more 'scared' of training seriously for a competition and losing a damn match before it even gets going - it happened to kelvin gastelum at the weekend and he's a 10th planet black belt!
I actually have a ticket for the defence camp and not the leg lock camp, i want to get on the leg lock camp too though. The main reason I didn't sign up for it before is that a lot of the leg lockers love positions like 50:50, X-guard and RDLR which I have pretty much zero interest in. I also have a short attention span for shin-to-shin guard and truck.
I actually have a ticket for the defence camp and not the leg lock camp, i want to get on the leg lock camp too though. The main reason I didn't sign up for it before is that a lot of the leg lockers love positions like 50:50, X-guard and RDLR which I have pretty much zero interest in. I also have a short attention span for shin-to-shin guard and truck.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
