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Are toe holds underrated?
6 year(s) ago • 5636 views • 20 replies
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
So i compete under 5 different rule sets, only 1 of them allows heel hooks and I won't be moving up divisions to 'advanced' for a long time, if at all. My introduction to foot locks came from people who don't have this issue (i.e. their rules allow heel hooks) and they always looked down their nose at toe holds. Pun intended. I sort of understand why you wouldn't prioritise them over heel hooks, but i also feel like they could be very useful in rulesets that don't allow heel hooks.
Whilst some people reckon they'd never tap to a toe hold, i look at this picture of Imanari doing one and it looks like a tap or snap situation to me, not a pain tap. Mackenzie Dern has a 9 second toe hold win at black belt level, and Magumi Fujii has a very quick one in MMA. Frank Mir, the only person with a UFC toe hold win, says he'd still hit it off an omoplata, the obvious benefit being that you don't need to reap the knee to make it work and when you hit an omoplata, most people are expecting... an omoplata.
I'm wondering if the reason they aren't highly utilised is because IBJJF doesn't allow them until brown belt, by which stage most people already have a competition game plan that doesn't use them. Added to this is that the people who would usually be enthusiastic about them probably aren't competing under IBJJF rules anyway and are probably allowed to do heel hooks.
Are toe holds a decent submission that slips through the crack for these reasons?
Whilst some people reckon they'd never tap to a toe hold, i look at this picture of Imanari doing one and it looks like a tap or snap situation to me, not a pain tap. Mackenzie Dern has a 9 second toe hold win at black belt level, and Magumi Fujii has a very quick one in MMA. Frank Mir, the only person with a UFC toe hold win, says he'd still hit it off an omoplata, the obvious benefit being that you don't need to reap the knee to make it work and when you hit an omoplata, most people are expecting... an omoplata.
I'm wondering if the reason they aren't highly utilised is because IBJJF doesn't allow them until brown belt, by which stage most people already have a competition game plan that doesn't use them. Added to this is that the people who would usually be enthusiastic about them probably aren't competing under IBJJF rules anyway and are probably allowed to do heel hooks.
Are toe holds a decent submission that slips through the crack for these reasons?
BNPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I am a big fan of toeholds and Estima locks, even if they don't finish, you can still use them to spur action in the exchange, etc. Often times when I see toeholds attempted in the IBJJF ruleset they are more of a "long shot" technique or being used to hold on as a handle to avoid sweep points. Honestly, I think the IBJJF should permit kneebar/toehold/slicers/Estimas at blue belt and adult brown/black no gi division should permit heel hooks. But that's just my thoughts... I don't see any universe where things will be opened more in the IBJJF ruleset, unfortunately.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I just got my ankle cracked by a toehold a couple of days ago. Knee line was clear and I was technically out of danger. But my friend had a good crank on it and my ankle gave in. I think I tapped verbally just in time before any major damage. Respect the toe holds. Walking funny for months because you didn't tap to one is just stupid. Like wristlocks, they are really good for creating scrambles and opening spaces or creating opportunities for other attacks.
FGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Toe Holds a re devastating submission and can be almost as dangerous as Heel Hooks! As a matter of fact, I believe all twisting submissions are potentially a lot more dangerous than locking out a joint straight due to the nature of the breaks caused by them...
However, a good coach is what will determine a safe training environment and encourage safe training and application of any submissions because a reckless person is a reckless person regardless of the submission being applied.
My coach Michelle Nicolini has some of the best toe holds in the business! And I believe Toe Holds are an extremely important submission to have in your technical repertoire, usually from blue belt and above, once you know how to apply them safely and there is a good culture on the mat!
However, a good coach is what will determine a safe training environment and encourage safe training and application of any submissions because a reckless person is a reckless person regardless of the submission being applied.
My coach Michelle Nicolini has some of the best toe holds in the business! And I believe Toe Holds are an extremely important submission to have in your technical repertoire, usually from blue belt and above, once you know how to apply them safely and there is a good culture on the mat!
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm wondering if the reason they aren't highly utilised is because IBJJF doesn't allow them until brown belt, by which stage most people already have a competition game plan that doesn't use them.
As ever, toe holds scare me (giving and receiving), so I've never used them in sparring. But I think you're probably right. Because many people (sadly) see the IBJJF as the be all and end all - and therefore only train within the IBJJF ruleset, with the various restrictions - it probably means toe hold usage goes down as a result.
Despite my fear, I have considered them as a way of getting past that one purple belt at my club who has an annoyingly good knee shield game (I've seen visiting black belts struggle to pass it, which makes me feel better ;) ).
So, hopefully Niels' camp with Craig Jones and Lachlan Giles in Leuven next year will help me on all of that. Indeed, with more camps like that, it's possible that toe hold etc usage could go up in general. Clearly there is an appetite for learning more leglocks, as when that camp originally went on sale, there was enough demand to run a second camp the week after on the same topic.
Despite my fear, I have considered them as a way of getting past that one purple belt at my club who has an annoyingly good knee shield game (I've seen visiting black belts struggle to pass it, which makes me feel better ;) ).
So, hopefully Niels' camp with Craig Jones and Lachlan Giles in Leuven next year will help me on all of that. Indeed, with more camps like that, it's possible that toe hold etc usage could go up in general. Clearly there is an appetite for learning more leglocks, as when that camp originally went on sale, there was enough demand to run a second camp the week after on the same topic.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JJBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
As ever, toe holds scare me (giving and receiving), so I've never used them in sparring. But I think you're probably right. Because many people (sadly) see the IBJJF as the be all and end all - and therefore only train within the IBJJF ruleset, with the various restrictions - it probably means toe hold usage goes down as a result. Despite my fear, I have considered them as a way of getting past that one purple belt at my club who has an annoyingly good knee shield game (I've seen visiting black belts struggle to pass it, which makes me feel better ;) ). So, hopefully Niels' camp with Craig Jones and Lachlan Giles in Leuven next year will help me on all of that. Indeed, with more camps like that, it's possible that toe hold etc usage could go up in general. Clearly there is an appetite for learning more leglocks, as when that camp originally went on sale, there was enough demand to run a second camp the week after on the same topic.
Estima Lock him
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
As a matter of fact, I believe all twisting submissions are potentially a lot more dangerous than locking out a joint straight due to the nature of the breaks caused by them..
Yep, this is the big thing that scares me about heel hooks and toe holds, compared to a kneebar which feels 'safer' because it's straight rather than twisting. I guess the toe hold I was shown (by Jeff Knight, at the 2018 Heidelcamp) is more secure, because you're already sat on them so it's less likely they are going to explode out of it and hurt themselves.
Great class, up on BJJ Globetrotters on Action (knee shield kneebar is at the end, 24 mins in). That doesn't have the toe hold on it, unfortunately, as I think he showed me that at open mat afterwards, but you can see how secure the position is, comparatively: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]p;t=24m43s
Great class, up on BJJ Globetrotters on Action (knee shield kneebar is at the end, 24 mins in). That doesn't have the toe hold on it, unfortunately, as I think he showed me that at open mat afterwards, but you can see how secure the position is, comparatively: https://www.youtube.com/w[...]p;t=24m43s
WJBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
The toe hold is my submission of choice, I can get it from most positions. It is an effective submission but also it can be used for other things like breaking down the knee shield/sweeps etc. Not underrated at all in my opinion.
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
The toe hold is my submission of choice, I can get it from most positions. It is an effective submission but also it can be used for other things like breaking down the knee shield/sweeps etc. Not underrated at all in my opinion.
In a position where you could attempt a knee bar or a toe hold, would your preference still be for the toe hold?
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have a number of wins by toehold and I have really strong hands and wrists so it has always been a good attack for me.. They are not just a pain submission if done right can do extensive damage in foot and or ankle and to a lesser extent the knee
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have a number of wins by toehold and I have really strong hands and wrists so it has always been a good attack for me.. They are not just a pain submission if done right can do extensive damage in foot and or ankle and to a lesser extent the knee
What are your best entries to the toe hold?
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
actually hit them mostly off my opponents guard off missed heel hooks
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
A friend of mine won a match with a toehold from bottom mount at some local submission grappling competition years ago. It was awesome. :D
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
A friend of mine won a match with a toehold from bottom mount at some local submission grappling competition years ago. It was awesome. :D
Bottom mount!!! How the flip does that work, s-mount?
MGPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Tomorrow will be three weeks since I had tendons in my ankle torn due to a toe hold. It still hurts and I have yet to return to training. They work but this one didn’t hurt at all until it popped so I question how much I will attempt them in training going forward. As a working adult, I don’t want to put someone else in a similar situation.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Bottom mount!!! How the flip does that work, s-mount?
Multiple ways to do it. Hail Mary or shrimp out and reach for the toes while exposing your back, for example. Wouldn't recommend it though.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Tomorrow will be three weeks since I had tendons in my ankle torn due to a toe hold. It still hurts and I have yet to return to training. They work but this one didn’t hurt at all until it popped so I question how much I will attempt them in training going forward. As a working adult, I don’t want to put someone else in a similar situation.
Control (and escapes) should be taught before the breaking mechanics, so injuries will be fewer.
I bought a decent ankle brace and was able to teach and roll quite normally today. Sideways movement is a big no no still, but the swelling is starting to go down and I can squat and even jog ok. More worried about my quad, lcl and calf right now. :D
I bought a decent ankle brace and was able to teach and roll quite normally today. Sideways movement is a big no no still, but the swelling is starting to go down and I can squat and even jog ok. More worried about my quad, lcl and calf right now. :D
AKPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Tomorrow will be three weeks since I had tendons in my ankle torn due to a toe hold. It still hurts and I have yet to return to training. They work but this one didn’t hurt at all until it popped so I question how much I will attempt them in training going forward. As a working adult, I don’t want to put someone else in a similar situation.
Was it a reverse toe hold? Aren't those basically heel hooks ... without hooking the heel
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Toeholds are legit and can damage the knee almost as well as heelhooks in addition to the obvious ankle injury.
Respect the toehold.
Respect the toehold.
JWBlue beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I use toe holds pretty regularly. My buddy won a NAGA belt using a Toe hold when he was a Brown Belt.
