Good post.

Thanks Jay!

This information is correct. I am a 2nd degree, and promoted 3 black belts who were all approved by the IBJJF to compete at black belt because they had been registered previously at brown.

Yes, good information, some BB’s I know don’t even know they are considered provisional because they’ve never done anything with the IBJJf so it comes as a shocker when dealing with the red tape.

Phew... good thing I was registered as brown...

This ONLY applies, however, to those who actually do and/or wish to compete in IBJJF tournaments... correct? I've seen associations that defintely have not gone by those "rules" of promotion.

Not necessarily, really it comes down to credibility in the eyes of a potential student. Like it or not, the IBJJF is the largest and most respected body in the sport. If you want the be ranked by them, then you have to play by their rules.

I'll play devil's advocate here :)

Your potential student who doesn't really know what BJJ is doesn't also know nor care what IBJJF is and weather you're certified or not.

Your potential student who knows what BJJ and IBJJF are is aware also of other sources of credibility and likely doesn't mind the lack of IBJJF cert (if the school is good).

@Jorgen - EXACTLY. For those of us who have been around much longer than the IBJJF, the perceived power grab to me isn't that big of a deal. Most students of mine don't compete more than a few times, if at all. Too many life responsibilites except for the young and single. Those not actively competing don't give a rat's hoot about who or what the IBJJF is or what they try to dictate.

I do not work for the IBJJF, I often have to deal with annoyances regarding the IBJJF, and my students enjoy competing in the IBJJF tournaments.

Anytime I hear a commercial school owner who charges $100 a month to their students instead of non-profit prices to their students,

complain that the IBJJF is also not charging non-profit prices,

I think: hypocrite, who does one thing but complains when others do the same thing.

Anytime I hear someone complain that they got docked time because they sent in their paperwork late,

I think: blame yourself for procrastinating or being disorganized.

Anytime I hear someone complain that they cannot get their own ranks recognized by the IBJJF because their instructor is not recognized by the IBJJF,

I think: is your instructor too cheap, too disorganized, or too prideful to do what they have to do so their students can compete in those tournaments with their proper ranks?

The IBJJF is a commercial tournament organization, not the Anti-Christ.

If you don't like their tournaments, don't go.

But remember, sometimes your choices also affect your student's choices later, regarding tournaments, etc.

90% plus of the complaints on this board about the IBJJF from black belts come from:

1) Black belts who charge commercial fees instead of non-profit fees to their students, but are bitching that the IBJJF does the same as they do,

and/or

2) People complaining about their own behaviors and short comings "I sent in my paperwork late, now I have to wait an extra year for my degree".
You did that, by waiting, take responsibility like a grown man / woman about it.

and/or

3) My instructor is not with the IBJJF, it's politics, etc.
No it's not IBJJF politics.
Somewhere along the line your instructor, or their instructor said,
"I don't want to pay the certification fee or do the paperwork for my students to compete in those tournaments at their proper ranks, and I am too proud to ask my buddies, associates, or others of the right IBJJF ranks that did go through those steps to help me and/or my students out so they can compete in those tournaments".
In many cases, their long time colleagues would help them or their students out for free, but they are just too proud to ask,
and that pride is often at the expense of their students, not just themselves.

For #3, that is not IBJJF politics, that is your instructor making a choice that affected you, often for purely selfish reasons of cheapness, or pride.

While I am excited about this site as an experiment and an alternate idea, that it is not because I have problems with the IBJJF other than annoyances.

Regarding why I like this site, I like benevolent chaos, and I like alternate paths to fitness, I like experiments, and I like the forums.

When Christian becomes Silicon Valley rich from monetizing this site later, I won't hold it against him, so long as he does nothing to have broken his promises along the way.

On the other hand, I am shocked at so many people blaming a third party for their own laziness, procrastinations, cheapness, especially when some of the ones doing so are commercial school owners providing a service to students, and charging hefty commercial monthly fees to those students.

I am shocked your students buy those bullcrap excuses, and I hope you do not teach them to be excuse makers when they are late with things in their life, or make a choice, and then blame others if they, or their future students/customers/etc later regret that choice, not just in Jiu-Jitsu with the IBJJF, but with any life or business choice that they make.

Take personal responsibility for your choices and actions.

Maybe some of you won't like me so much after you read this, or really won't like the mirror I just held up for you.

I don't care. You can always downvote me, if you like.

[/ Old man rant over]

William,

I for one respect your position and everything you just said. Yes, your points are all valid!

Except for those of us that are seeing this from a different angle. The IBJJF is the largest tournament organization and is thereby "the most respected" shall we say, in terms of providing legitimacy to its members others who DO compete for them.

What I think gets many of us riled up is the notion that some IBJJF competitiors seem to have, that if you aren't IBJJF certified then you are somehow "a fraud." (Yes, I've been called that by keyboard warriors!) If the IBJJF wants to charge money for their services, that's fine - and yes, I do as do most other instructors.

I can't speak for anyone else, but only for myself. For ME, my criticisms surrounding the IBJJF is that they do absolutely nothing of benefit or interest for me or my students, but yet it seems like they are trying to position themselves - and some BJJ practitioners already seem to believe they actually are - the ONLY means of establishing legitimacy in this art and sport. Were the process simpler and the costs more reasonable, perhaps I'd jump on board with that process. But for ME, it's too much for absolutely nothing more than an "additional" certification from a "governing body" who is NOT recognized by even a majority of practitioners as such.

I'm not bitching about the IBJJF. I'm simply saying it isn't the end-all, be-all authority in the Jiu Jitsu world, and I think it's purpose is clearly that of a money and power grab more than to be of actual benefit to the majority of teachers and students in the great Jiu Jitsu community. Nothhing more, nothing less.

Look at your quote.

If the IBJJF did not provide tournaments all over the world,

and was not directly responsible, second only to Royce Gracie's appearance in the UFC,

for spreading Jiu-Jitsu all over the world in an accelerated fashion with their investments

into providing tournaments all over the world, I might agree with you.

They were a first mover for providing widespread Jiu-Jitsu tournaments, and in that manner, spreading Jiu-Jitsu.

Many other fine tournaments organizations sprung up afterwards that also brought more tournaments across their respective locales, then countries, then internationally.

But that was not a trivial contribution, and took a lot of continued investment.

The IBJJF is a for profit initiative.

Therefore, it makes money.

But, it provides a service, and since I can remember when competing in a BJJ tournament meant throwing your own, or picking up a plane ticket to Southern California or Rio de Janeiro,

I recognize that the fruits of their contribution,

including helping establish the market that allowed their own competitors to spring up and flourish,

has frankly been huge.

Also, they are a large organization.

Large organizations are doomed to provide a reasonably good job, at best, and not make everybody happy, especially in a community as ridiculously knuckleheaded as the BJJ community.

The egos in this community are generally huge.

@jorgen I think you might be surprised on this one, specially in BJJ saturated markets which exists in most cities. For example lets pretend we are in San Diego. I google BJJ and am immediately inundated with links about BJJ schools and some of the links state that the instructor is a world champion. Naturally a large percentage will then google that potential instructors name. Say you pick Andre Galvao.... the images you will see of him plastered with IBJJF or ADCC logos/medals/etc. This creates a sense of credibility which would lead some people to justify paying way more to train at Atos then their local BJJ academy.
Like it or not IBJJF and ADCC will always be seen as the most credible sources. This is evident by the quality of their competitors at all levels and how we view their champions versus the champions of Gracie Nationals or SJJIF worlds.

I've been submission grappling since the beginning of 1993. Watched Royce Gracie dominate the UFC at the end of the year, saying "Hey we do all those submissions, too!"
Took a while for me to drink the Jiu Jitsu koolaid and get on board, but eventually it was both logical and necessary.

I clearly remember Grappler's Quest and NAGA being the "first movers" for widspread Jiu-Jitsu tournaments. Frankly, the first time I ever even heard of the IBJJF was right after my first wife died in 2007. Even now, here in New England there is only one IBJJF tournament (in Boston) scheduled for this year. Maybe in other places they are responsible for big things, but up here in the northeast they're still the new kid on the block who doesn't really do much or matter much. NAGA, Grappling Industries, The Good Fight, and even Tap Cancer Out are all more well known and relevant (for us in New England and NY).

Again, I'm not an IBJJF "hater" - It's just that for all they have done, they just haven't had any impact of consequence in my region. Ever.

Well, I don't mean to violate the don't post events rule.

But, I think some factual counter point is fair in the context of this discussion.

There is an IBJJF tournament in D.C. this April.

There is an IBJJF tournament in Boston this May.

And they just had an IBJJF tournament in New York in Nov of 2019.

By the by, they will probably have referee / rules courses at those up and coming tournaments, even if those rules courses have not been announced yet, for anybody that has had a hard time finding one in the North East U.S.

And in the 1990s the Confederation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was having tournaments in Florida and California, however, they experimented with having State Federations in the U.S., before abandoning the idea, getting the rights of the IBJJF name from Carlson Jr. and transferring them to Carlos Gracie Jr, and running with the for profit IBJJF model because it was much simpler from an accounting perspective and reporting perspective than the non-profit model.

Plus, it had the added of benefit for the founder-investors of being able to make and pay out profits.

With all due respect, Sir:

I was aware of the one in NY last fall, but that was last year...

I did already mention the one in Boston in May.

As I literally live 400 yards from Canada, I personally don't consider D.C. part of the "northeast" and it's definitely not part of New England or New York.

So, respectfully, I'm not really sure you've given a "counterpoint" to anything I said.

The fact remains that the IBJJF has only ONE event in 2020 within 600 miles of my location. It's just not all that relevant "up here." :-)

But I do give you kudos for your support of them!

(Edited for spelling)

@Adam,

There is some irony that I find myself giving counter point regarding the IBJJF at all.

As I am a well known fan of having multiple tournament organizations, multiple rulesets,

and multiple paths for the consumer to have caveat emptor options available to them to research and connect with members of the BJJ community.

On the other hand, balanced reporting, while rare these days, is still worthwhile.

Take note, I did not speak kindly about your competitors making petty comments about you.

And I do not mind people having their own opinions, as clearly evidenced by voting for you based on your verifiable lineage, regardless if we should disagree on this point or that.

And you do not need to call me Sir, unless you wish me to call you Sir, in turn.

Don't make me ask, "Do you bite your thumb at me, Sir?"

In my best attempt at Shakespearean voice.

Otherwise, I am fully prepared to enact a full Monty Python sketch.

Just to go full irony, I'll really piss everybody off:

I myself prefer two kinds of tournaments:

1) non-profit tournaments for recreational athletes where the event has insurance through the AAU or USJA and everybody pays $10 to cover pizza for the refs.

and

2) Purse invitational tournaments for professionals, where all submissions, and all Judo, Greco, Sambo, and Freestyle wrestling takedowns are allowed.

I have nothing against commercial tournament providers, however.

Many provide a fine service for the monies they charge.

But I started off as a wrestler, then a Judoka, then a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu player, and many of my own biases come from amateur and scholastic Wrestling,

which has a far more non-profit rather than commercial model.

@ Sir William,

Do you teach seminars? I would like to improve my Black Knight guard, so that "None shall pass."

I do appreciate the research you did into Michael and I, and the votes. Thank you!

My favorite tournament ever was an in-state University BJJ club fundraiser in 2005. I only coached that day, with 4 students competing. The entry fee was only lke $40 or $50, with a gi, traditional BJJ rules, and a double elimination format (they modeled it somewhat after AAU Judo).

There's a long story there that ties directly into how/why I got my purple belt later that year, but the point is that it was inexpensive, relatively small, extremely well run, and everyone had a lot of fun!

I think more smaller and local tournaments are better for many hobbyist athletes anyway, and am happy to leave the big tourneys to the big names and professionals.

There is not much I could say that some world champion or other in Judo, Wrestling, or Jiu-Jitsu has not already put on a DVD, or you tube.

I am content to eat olives, that are stuffed with both raw garlic AND jalapenos.

They are truly delicious.

So the secret to preventing guard passing is raw garlic and jalapenos????

INGENIOUS!!!!

1. Until Jiu-Jitsu gets to a point where it gets the same support from society, government, and schools like wrestling does, I feel that will never happen.

2. Those types of invitational tournaments exist already. Fight to Win, SUG, EBI, finishers, World Series of Jiu-Jitsu, and Grappling Industries, Only Submission Only just to name a few.

My dear Professor Jay Pages,

I have helped arrange both types of those tournaments many times.

Including $10,000 cash prize tournaments in the second case,

and fine recreational tournaments with a song and dance entry in the first place.

It only takes a set of mats and venue in the case of the first,

and a set of mats and a venue, with raising the money for the prize in the second,

and/or fronting part or all of the costs oneself, to the limit of one's own wallet,

and then smiling and dialing for the rest.

But, if you have mats, there is always a venue,

and other front money can always be raised, if one is willing.

Once one has mats, the barriers to entry for either are very small.

I suppose that is partially why I find all of this angst with the IBJJF puzzling, and funny, if I am blunt.

If you have mats, you can throw a tournament.

If you have mats, and go to the trouble of raising or providing a cash prize,

you can have an invitational for professionals.

It is always a fair amount of hassle,

but any of us can do this.

Some of us, do...

Of course, i strongly recommend mat carts.

Mat carts are the friend of anyone who holds venue changing demonstrations, or tournaments.

Buy the mat carts, if you must move mats...

Best money you will ever spend, second only to mats themselves.

From the European perspective, IBJJF’s have been almost the only bigger international tournaments worth traveling to, especially in the pyjamas. The US has had a better choice of commercial organizers for some time.

I think in Finland every single academy has an IBJJF registered professor, or in the case of the smaller ones, a friendly professor from an affiliated academy who can approve the students’ competing licences. It would certainly be crippling to a gym here for its students not to be able to go test themselves in the big European IBBJF events because the instructors have not been bothered with the Federation for personal reasons.

However, we are lucky to have a local Federation, the FBJJF, which is fantastic and has been spoiling us. For starters, it’s non-profit. Still, tournaments are ran super professionally. Entry prices are very reasonable, and the winners get money prizes - for all the colored belt categories, from all the events. (For example, in the BJJ Finnish Open, the winner of brown/black belts each weight category gets 800 euros. This money has to be used for travel costs to international tournaments though.) Referee courses are free (we follow the IBJJF ruleset). Also the Federation runs free seminars for members, you can get your injury insurance a bit cheaper through them, and overall does good job promoting the sports in the country.

I would like to comment on the idea that anyone who is opposed to the IBJJF but runs a non-non-profit school is a hypocrite.

The IBJJF is exploitative. It uses its perceived legitimacy in an extremely exploitative way. It operates effectively as a monopoly. No other sport that I'm aware of has such a governing body with such a leeching character, requiring thousands of dollars from an athlete to stay registered and compete over the years and standing ready to punish anyone who doesn't cough up money every year by withholding rank from them, and then using and designing their competition entry system as a stick to punish black belts who don't sign up by punishing their students? And we could keep going, this is not even close to the end of the offenses against the IBJJF's model.

Lest you think I'm also a hypocrite, I want to make it clear that I have taught full time at a pay-what-you-want gym for the last two years as a lead instructor in judo and BJJ, and also taught before that at my non-profit judo school. I make far below the poverty line from martial arts, but happily, doing what I love.

The whole thing is a racket. I don't think there's anything wrong with charging a reasonable price in martial arts instruction, and I appreciate and admire sharing the art outside of the profit model of capitalism, but it is a false and unreasonable comparison to say that the IBJJF is no different from a gym owner making a living in our society.

When I get my black belt, I will likely begrudgingly pay the minimum to get certified with them–which will be hundreds of dollars over two years, as I understand it. Off the top of my head, I think it is $400 for initial sign up and then $150/yr for two years to get past my provisional status?

After that, I will stop paying them. If I have a student who wants to compete in IBJJF, they can use my professor or Globetrotters, but I'd rather dedicate $150/yr to anyone who wants to create an organization that will usurp the IBJJF and support the sport instead of sucking it dry. Examples like Finland and the UK show us what we could have. I don't like USA Judo, but even they are miles better than the IBJJF. It's reasonable to expect an org that isn't ripping everyone in the sport off.

Why do you plan on getting IBJJF certification at all, if you don't subscribe to their model? You don't need it to compete in their tournaments FYI

Kyle Baker,

The IBJJF does not remotely meets the requirements to be able to operate like a monopoly.

There are many other tournament organizations that have national and international reach, some of them ran by people who are verified members on this board.

Plus, anyone with mats can throw a tournament, the barrier to entry to throwing tournaments is merely mats plus willingness to do the required work.

Regarding rank, not only are there several organizations that recognize rank, there is also this site, and more importantly any well known black belt in BJJ of the right degree according to their own lineage may promote people to black belt, the IBJJF is optional, not required.

Finally, being that membership in the IBJJF is not required to practice BJJ, compete in BJJ, or have “ranks” in BJJ, but is in all three cases, strictly optional,

How have they “exploited” you?

The IBJJF is optional. The IBJJF has the legitimacy they have, much like a recognized instructor does (since they have 4,000+ certified BJJ black belts who are members as their rank examiners), but not more legitimacy than they have.

Because again, they are optional, and as explained above, they are in no way a monopoly for tournaments, nor rank recognition.

Marco Flores on this site, for instance, runs a fine tournament organization that competes with the IBJJF.

And Christian, a single person, put out a website for rank recognition that picked up over a thousand verified BJJ black belts in just a couple of days, which should tell that there is no barrier to entry for anyone else to do so.

The allegation or concern that the IBJJF is a monopoly, or can in effect operate like a monopoly, is thus clearly false.

The allegation that the IBJJF has an exploitative hold on the BJJ community is false, because participation with the IBJJF is clearly optional, and there is no barrier to entry for anyone with mats and a website to create competing alternatives to both their tournament offerings, and their certified rank examiner model.

The IBJJF clearly has brand recognition.

But that that does not make them a mandatory monopoly.

If you don’t like their product, or prices, drink Pepsi or water instead of Coca-Cola.