Rules for main forums
- Be nice
- No advertisement
- No events
- No fundraisers
- No topics asking for votes
- Only posts related to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Why don't more Traditional Martial Artists embrace BJJ?
5 year(s) ago • 789 views • 26 replies
DBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I have been a Traditional Martial Artist since 1985. I am a 5th Degree Black Belt in Karate and own a TMA school. I am also a Purple Belt in BJJ. I think EGO is the biggest obstacle to more Traditional Martial Artists getting into BJJ. Without degrading any other style or person, what do you think is the biggest hinderance to encouraging more TMA stylist s to take a look at BJJ?
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Because of you introduce the concept of progressive resistance drilling, positional sparring and sparring then
1) it's kinda hard
2) you get tempted to do that on your TMA stuff and then the house of cards crumbles
I think I have a whole 1 person in my club who also does TMA - super cool guy and interested in historical perspectives etc.
Also at least in Estonia, TMAs are not nearly as popular as they were from mid 90s to mid 00s.
1) it's kinda hard
2) you get tempted to do that on your TMA stuff and then the house of cards crumbles
I think I have a whole 1 person in my club who also does TMA - super cool guy and interested in historical perspectives etc.
Also at least in Estonia, TMAs are not nearly as popular as they were from mid 90s to mid 00s.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
By its very nature TMA means there can't be any changes to the forms and does not accept any variations and fluctuations to the 'tradition' and getting people who have invested decades in learning how to think 'traditional', forcing them to abandon many of the (IMHO unrealistic) and romantic notions of 'one punch one kill' ethos is too much for them. You would shake up the entire organization to permit BJJ as I discovered as TMA is at one extreme while BJJ is at the other spectrum of martial arts.
After giving up my 5th dan Shotokan back circa 2001 (prob would be 7th or 8th dan by now had I continued) I had a choice of pursuing BJJ or the former. I'm very happy with my choice as even til today I see many references to grappling within the kata that most TMA karate folks won't unless they have some knowledge in judo or jiujitsu- so the TMA folks happily do their own reverse-engineer the hidden meanings behind the kata to fit their narrow and limited understanding of what they are black belts in (no joke about this). Even at 5th dan I never felt as confident as I did when I was a blue belt in BJJ.
Jorgen is correct that the is a sad absence in resistance training - usually omitted under the pretext of techniques 'being too lethal'. You should hear some of the experiences I've had with world champions, masters, etc. and they focus on very stylised/limited sparring practices that really work best within their style.
Coupled with this, most orgs discourage cross-training cos they are all too well versed with the 'death before loyalty' ethos and game it to the max. Most orgs discourage members venturing out into new arts always claiming to be all that's required however I see this as a poorly veiled method for membership retention. At least this has been in my personal experience.
After giving up my 5th dan Shotokan back circa 2001 (prob would be 7th or 8th dan by now had I continued) I had a choice of pursuing BJJ or the former. I'm very happy with my choice as even til today I see many references to grappling within the kata that most TMA karate folks won't unless they have some knowledge in judo or jiujitsu- so the TMA folks happily do their own reverse-engineer the hidden meanings behind the kata to fit their narrow and limited understanding of what they are black belts in (no joke about this). Even at 5th dan I never felt as confident as I did when I was a blue belt in BJJ.
Jorgen is correct that the is a sad absence in resistance training - usually omitted under the pretext of techniques 'being too lethal'. You should hear some of the experiences I've had with world champions, masters, etc. and they focus on very stylised/limited sparring practices that really work best within their style.
Coupled with this, most orgs discourage cross-training cos they are all too well versed with the 'death before loyalty' ethos and game it to the max. Most orgs discourage members venturing out into new arts always claiming to be all that's required however I see this as a poorly veiled method for membership retention. At least this has been in my personal experience.
![Slideyfoot [jun]](userimg/5e25cf311adfd.jpg){kind=small}
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
If you've spent 20/30 years or dedicating your life to doing a martial art, and then you realise there is something that makes your decades of experience completely meaningless, that's hard for a lot of people to take.
Which is why I admire people who have the humility to go from being a long standing black belt in one style to a white belt in another. David Meyer is a good example, as he went even further, shutting up his TMA school to switch to BJJ instead. To name drop, I had a good discussion with John Will about him a few years back. So yeah, I'm going to quote myself :P -
https://www.artemisbjj.co[...]johnwill2/
ME: That kind of ties into the next question. Perhaps the most striking story I read in [Will's book] Passion & Purpose was the anecdote about David Meyer.
He was a Danzan Ryu Jiu Jitsu third degree black belt, but shortly after starting BJJ and getting dominated by your purple belt self, he announced to his class that he could no longer in good conscience wear his black belt and teach them. Instead, he was going to shut down the school and strap on a white belt.
That kind of humility is very rare, due to the prestige of a black belt. With the increasingly widespread growth of BJJ, are people like Meyer becoming more or less common?
JOHN WILL: It’s a good question, an interesting question. Certainly at the time, it was startling to me that he did that. It showed me the heart of the guy, right away, in an instant. He is one of the most moral, ethical people that I’ve ever met: he’s had a profound influence on me. I’m a much better person for having known David Meyer. I think that’s a great way to choose your friends. If you’re better off having known them, they’re good people. So, we became fast friends because of that.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe it is easier nowadays. Maybe today, people are a little bit less wedded to the rank and therefore it might be easier for them to do what Meyer did back then. But when he did it, it was climbing Mount Everest for the first time. Nowadays, lots of people do it, and they aren’t even mountain climbers. Probably nowadays it is a little easier, because there’s so much literal proof all around us that a BJJ black belt is a very worthy goal, it is easier for people to start. I’m sure of it, actually, as thousands of martial artists have done exactly that.
Now, maybe they haven’t closed their schools down, but in fairness David only had twenty or thirty students. It wasn’t like he was closing his business down, that would have been pretty incredible. He was closing his hobby down. I don’t want to take away from him, because it was still a wonderful thing. He was trying to encourage them, though interestingly enough, only one or two of them came over, but after six months none of them were there. Except for Dick Treanor, he came over and he’s still pottering around.
Which is why I admire people who have the humility to go from being a long standing black belt in one style to a white belt in another. David Meyer is a good example, as he went even further, shutting up his TMA school to switch to BJJ instead. To name drop, I had a good discussion with John Will about him a few years back. So yeah, I'm going to quote myself :P -
https://www.artemisbjj.co[...]johnwill2/
ME: That kind of ties into the next question. Perhaps the most striking story I read in [Will's book] Passion & Purpose was the anecdote about David Meyer.
He was a Danzan Ryu Jiu Jitsu third degree black belt, but shortly after starting BJJ and getting dominated by your purple belt self, he announced to his class that he could no longer in good conscience wear his black belt and teach them. Instead, he was going to shut down the school and strap on a white belt.
That kind of humility is very rare, due to the prestige of a black belt. With the increasingly widespread growth of BJJ, are people like Meyer becoming more or less common?
JOHN WILL: It’s a good question, an interesting question. Certainly at the time, it was startling to me that he did that. It showed me the heart of the guy, right away, in an instant. He is one of the most moral, ethical people that I’ve ever met: he’s had a profound influence on me. I’m a much better person for having known David Meyer. I think that’s a great way to choose your friends. If you’re better off having known them, they’re good people. So, we became fast friends because of that.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe it is easier nowadays. Maybe today, people are a little bit less wedded to the rank and therefore it might be easier for them to do what Meyer did back then. But when he did it, it was climbing Mount Everest for the first time. Nowadays, lots of people do it, and they aren’t even mountain climbers. Probably nowadays it is a little easier, because there’s so much literal proof all around us that a BJJ black belt is a very worthy goal, it is easier for people to start. I’m sure of it, actually, as thousands of martial artists have done exactly that.
Now, maybe they haven’t closed their schools down, but in fairness David only had twenty or thirty students. It wasn’t like he was closing his business down, that would have been pretty incredible. He was closing his hobby down. I don’t want to take away from him, because it was still a wonderful thing. He was trying to encourage them, though interestingly enough, only one or two of them came over, but after six months none of them were there. Except for Dick Treanor, he came over and he’s still pottering around.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I sorta did the same thing and this decision was spurred by an TMA acquaintance being interviewed by national newspapers after a high profile murder in a domestic dispute and he was relating that she was an accomplished black belt and his favorite student, etc. This weighed heavily on my conscience and subsequently I quit not long after and was perfectly happy to strap on a white belt. No one from my former club followed my decision.
YBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I don't think its only about the difficulty/reality check aspect. I think another factor is the same reason why so many people are opposed to changing or even visiting other gyms within BJJ- their current environment gives them a sense of community and camaraderie, and they will avoid any situations that disrupt that.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Same reason most people on earth don't train BJJ: it's tough.
DBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Same reason most people on earth don't train BJJ: it's tough.
Completely agree with this. It is hard. Much harder than any of the other styles I've trained in. I do disagree with someone's comment that my previous training is "meaningless". That said, I call myself a Traditional Martial Artist, but I have evolved and my program is divided into 3 separate areas: The Art, The Sport, and The Street. Each has a meaningful place. BJJ has been a great addition to what I do. I have always been a white belt at heart and am always willing to learn something new, keep what I feel works, discard what I feel doesn't. Thank you all for the respectful responses.
DBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Because of you introduce the concept of progressive resistance drilling, positional sparring and sparring then 1) it's kinda hard 2) you get tempted to do that on your TMA stuff and then the house of cards crumbles I think I have a whole 1 person in my club who also does TMA - super cool guy and interested in historical perspectives etc. Also at least in Estonia, TMAs are not nearly as popular as they were from mid 90s to mid 00s.
Do you feel that styles like Kyokushin don't pressure test their technique?
KLBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I’m right there with you guys, I put in about 10 years in Karate. Even opened up my own school and was teaching until I trained my first day in BJJ and got my ass kicked on the ground by everyone. After that I knew BJJ was for me because I could learn so much from everyone! I quickly closed my Karate school and have been doing BjJ full time ever since. I don’t regret my time training and teaching karate, as with all things in life we do it gives me prospective.
SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I’m right there with you guys, I put in about 10 years in Karate. Even opened up my own school and was teaching until I trained my first day in BJJ and got my ass kicked on the ground by everyone. After that I knew BJJ was for me because I could learn so much from everyone! I quickly closed my Karate school and have been doing BjJ full time ever since. I don’t regret my time training and teaching karate, as with all things in life we do it gives me prospective.
Did any of your students follow you to BJJ?
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
TMA guys also have the same sense of community that Jiu Jitsu guys have. A lot train just to have that community around them, not to become lethal masters etc. I did 6 years of Aikido before Jiu Jitsu and still have really close friends from those days. I switched as I was still young and sort of forced out. 2 of us started garage grappling once we saw UFC 1 and realized how easily we could school the other Aikidokas. We used to "train" after class for 30 mins on moves we saw in Gracie basics tape and others started to join us. Sensei saw that and put a stop to it immediately giving us no choice but to leave. Leaving the school was not an easy decision to make.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
DBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Did any of your students follow you to BJJ?
Yes. I have several that cross train, including one who is now a Blue Belt.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
TMA guys also have the same sense of community that Jiu Jitsu guys have. A lot train just to have that community around them, not to become lethal masters etc. I did 6 years of Aikido before Jiu Jitsu and still have really close friends from those days. I switched as I was still young and sort of forced out. 2 of us started garage grappling once we saw UFC 1 and realized how easily we could school the other Aikidokas. We used to 'train' after class for 30 mins on moves we saw in Gracie basics tape and others started to join us. Sensei saw that and put a stop to it immediately giving us no choice but to leave. Leaving the school was not an easy decision to make.
That instructors ego got the better of him for sure. It's too bad things like this happen.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
That instructors ego got the better of him for sure. It's too bad things like this happen.
I don't blame him at all though. It was an Aikido dojo and there we were garage grappling after hours. We were 100% in the wrong. If it was a yoga school, you don't go there to lift weights right?
KLBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Did any of your students follow you to BJJ?
It was a mix, between going back to my Karate instructor, doing both or switching full time to BJJ. Now after 10 years I can tell you there is only one person who is still doing both out of all of them and the rest are either BJJ or quit all together.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
TMA guys also have the same sense of community that Jiu Jitsu guys have. A lot train just to have that community around them, not to become lethal masters etc. I did 6 years of Aikido before Jiu Jitsu and still have really close friends from those days. I switched as I was still young and sort of forced out. 2 of us started garage grappling once we saw UFC 1 and realized how easily we could school the other Aikidokas. We used to 'train' after class for 30 mins on moves we saw in Gracie basics tape and others started to join us. Sensei saw that and put a stop to it immediately giving us no choice but to leave. Leaving the school was not an easy decision to make.
Speaking of Aikido..I did Aikido for awhile in Spain when I lived there. Started with a guy on base and then when he shipped back to the States I went to a guy name Kitaura Sensei. I really enjoyed my time doing Aikido although I knew it wasn't what the movies portrayed it as. I got to meet Waka Sensei at a seminar in Madrid back in the early 90's.
I still have my bokken (both short and long), Jo and tanto all made of a nice cherry wood. They are decoration now in my living room.
I have used ikyo, nikyo and kotegaeshi while rolling on unsuspecting folks but does not work very often.
I still have my bokken (both short and long), Jo and tanto all made of a nice cherry wood. They are decoration now in my living room.
I have used ikyo, nikyo and kotegaeshi while rolling on unsuspecting folks but does not work very often.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Speaking of Aikido..I did Aikido for awhile in Spain when I lived there. Started with a guy on base and then when he shipped back to the States I went to a guy name Kitaura Sensei. I really enjoyed my time doing Aikido although I knew it wasn't what the movies portrayed it as. I got to meet Waka Sensei at a seminar in Madrid back in the early 90's. I still have my bokken (both short and long), Jo and tanto all made of a nice cherry wood. They are decoration now in my living room. I have used ikyo, nikyo and kotegaeshi while rolling on unsuspecting folks but does not work very often.
Sankyo when someone has your back and goes for the choke. It's sort of worked, not to submission, but enough to escape.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Sankyo when someone has your back and goes for the choke. It's sort of worked, not to submission, but enough to escape.
I broke a guys wrist one time when he put his arm around my shoulder with sankyo..Lol It was an accident cause I was just messing around and he moved abruptly. Dude was a Master Sergeant so I could've gotten into trouble. He was pissed. Lol Luckily we were very good friends so he admitted that he was partly to blame.
JABlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Completely agree with this. It is hard. Much harder than any of the other styles I've trained in. I do disagree with someone's comment that my previous training is 'meaningless'. That said, I call myself a Traditional Martial Artist, but I have evolved and my program is divided into 3 separate areas: The Art, The Sport, and The Street. Each has a meaningful place. BJJ has been a great addition to what I do. I have always been a white belt at heart and am always willing to learn something new, keep what I feel works, discard what I feel doesn't. Thank you all for the respectful responses.
As a third-degree black belt in Kenpo Karate, I always looked to techniques that suited me and would ostensibly work period. I never had an issue looking outside Kenpo, and to my teacher's credit, he always allowed that to happen, but many other people would always ask, why are you throwing the person, or choking them, etc.
I feel fortunate that as a TMA, I was allowed to explore different arts. Striking is important, just as Judo is, but the ground is always there. I want to feel competent in all distances of combat, not just 1, and "expect it to work" - but I don't think lots of people think that way, especially long term practitioners.
I hope one-day many more folks will see merit and worth in arts outside their own as well. I think there's great knowledge inside these TMA arts as well for grappling to gleen.
I feel fortunate that as a TMA, I was allowed to explore different arts. Striking is important, just as Judo is, but the ground is always there. I want to feel competent in all distances of combat, not just 1, and "expect it to work" - but I don't think lots of people think that way, especially long term practitioners.
I hope one-day many more folks will see merit and worth in arts outside their own as well. I think there's great knowledge inside these TMA arts as well for grappling to gleen.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I hate to criticize TMA as a whole but the term traditional has a tendency to be self limiting.. I have always felt martial arts are about fighting first and foremost.. For a martial art to be successful it must almost be a living breathing thing and adapt to any challenges it encounters. I have always been amazed at how closed minded people can be and on top of that it amazes me even more that after empirical evidence shows the flow in their thought process how many insist on holding onto it..
It has always driven me nots after someone is obviously out of their element they come up with the rational of "if it was for real". Yes if it was for real you would be dead right now you just got pimped or the even better what about multiple attackers.. Hey if you can't beat onne guy how are you going to handle 2?
It has always driven me nots after someone is obviously out of their element they come up with the rational of "if it was for real". Yes if it was for real you would be dead right now you just got pimped or the even better what about multiple attackers.. Hey if you can't beat onne guy how are you going to handle 2?
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Do you feel that styles like Kyokushin don't pressure test their technique?
Kyokushin in my mind is not a traditional art. It started with Oyama as a punching ant and adapted after facing Muay Thai
DFBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I hate to criticize TMA as a whole but the term traditional has a tendency to be self limiting.. I have always felt martial arts are about fighting first and foremost.. For a martial art to be successful it must almost be a living breathing thing and adapt to any challenges it encounters. I have always been amazed at how closed minded people can be and on top of that it amazes me even more that after empirical evidence shows the flow in their thought process how many insist on holding onto it.. It has always driven me nots after someone is obviously out of their element they come up with the rational of 'if it was for real'. Yes if it was for real you would be dead right now you just got pimped or the even better what about multiple attackers.. Hey if you can't beat onne guy how are you going to handle 2?
100% agree. The rational behind the anti BJJ rhetoric is more out of fear of being inferior .
Like you said it's about fighting, adapt and include it .
We could probably both trade names of some north Jersey martial artists that fit the mold of what you described!
Like you said it's about fighting, adapt and include it .
We could probably both trade names of some north Jersey martial artists that fit the mold of what you described!
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
100% agree. The rational behind the anti BJJ rhetoric is more out of fear of being inferior . Like you said it's about fighting, adapt and include it . We could probably both trade names of some north Jersey martial artists that fit the mold of what you described!
The ones i love are the ones who for years bad mouthed grappling and suddenly are now grapplers and BJJ Black Belts
JWBlue beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I did a few traditional martial arts and then semi-traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu. BJJ was way harder than any of those. I was a 2nd degree blackbelt and really was the best in my school back then. In BJJ I did good against white belts, not as great as I would have liked. Blues destroyed me and anything above was just a mercy killing. I have never had much of an ego but some others I know would never put them in a position that made them look "weak" or less than a "Master". I honestly was excited to be so throughly beaten, I wanted to learn more. I learned a lot from my other class though and some of it transferred over, other things needed altered and I had to unlearn bad habits.
Some people can admit they don't know everything and others look for excuses.
Some people can admit they don't know everything and others look for excuses.
NTBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I owe my eventual transition to bjj from two realistic TMA practitioners. I got into BJJ for two reasons. 1) I got choked via rnc by a tae kwon do friend who saw the move on tv 2) my Kung fu instructor readily admitted the the system he taught did not have a response for grappling and encouraged me to to learn.
I continued to train in Kung fu for a while even after I started bjj. I liked the breath training (qi gong and stuff like that) since it helped me pace my breathing and recover faster. I also think the stance training helped me with my base. I thought to myself that I’d learn just enough bjj to defend it, stand up, and resume using Kung fu. Annnnd 14 years later I don’t try feel as rushed to stand back up.
Even though I don’t train in kung fu anymore, I credit my time training in TMA to driving my journey to seek martial arts that use training against resisting opponents.
I continued to train in Kung fu for a while even after I started bjj. I liked the breath training (qi gong and stuff like that) since it helped me pace my breathing and recover faster. I also think the stance training helped me with my base. I thought to myself that I’d learn just enough bjj to defend it, stand up, and resume using Kung fu. Annnnd 14 years later I don’t try feel as rushed to stand back up.
Even though I don’t train in kung fu anymore, I credit my time training in TMA to driving my journey to seek martial arts that use training against resisting opponents.
RBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
What others have already said: A lot of traditional martial artists (notice, I didn't say all) can't stand to have their bubbles burst. I trained in traditional martial arts for years and eventually (and thankfully) got exposed to real shit. It seems that a lot of TMA's don't really respect or appreciate boxing or Muay Thai either. Same reasons.
