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Striking in BJJ?

5 year(s) ago • 13613 views • 172 replies

Joel Matson
Joel Matson
Black beltVerified108 forum posts3910/1000
5 year(s) ago
How many of you have formalized punching or kicking techniques in your jujitsu program?

Most of my BJJ training has been in sport focused gyms. However, I also have a fairly extensive karate and kickboxing background. I've recently found myself drawn to the notion of merging these training methods. Not so much as an MMA type program but using some basic kicks to set up take-downs or manage distance prior to a clinch. And using some palm strike or punching techniques in order to force your opponent to roll over and give up their back or expos an arm. This type of thing; reminiscent of some old Gracie challenge video type stuff. How many of you are doing stuff like this? And, how does it work?
Philip Dunlap
Philip Dunlap
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1043 forum posts59560/1000
5 year(s) ago
Coming from a Lethwei and Kickboxing my grappling game has always been about avoiding and setting op strikes
Vince Choo
Vince Choo
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1126 forum posts21045/1000
5 year(s) ago
My initial exposure to BJJ was for it to work against strikes. I didn't even know about the sport/competitive component until later on, so yeah, all beginners are taught how to defend themselves in a fist fight
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
5 year(s) ago
We train jiu jitsu with strikes. Both offensively and defensively. Everyone seems to enjoy it.
Different strokes for different folks.
Mirco
Mirco
Brown beltVerified805 forum posts5075/700
5 year(s) ago
We do BJJ with and without strikes.
In my opinion it’s important learning to defend against punches, in stand up, clinch and ground.
So we train fundamentals of boxing/striking to learn correct body mechanics. But we don’t Train boxing. It is more to close the distance for clinch, etc.... and defending strikes.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
Olivier Hennau
Olivier Hennau
Black belt 1st degreeVerified219 forum posts6675/1000
5 year(s) ago
Yes
We don't do strikes properly cause we have plenty of great kickboxing and muaythai gyms round and i encourage people to train it, even a little bit.

Also 2/3 of my student have a decent striking level, they generally come from those discipline and want to check wrestling/grappling aspect...

when i show technique, i always try to explain varient/conséquence with strikes, sport bjj, and no-gi.

To me a blue belt must be able to défend and apply basic techniques even if he/she's under strike and also if the opponent do not wear a gi.

Edited 5 year(s) ago
Randy
Randy
Black belt 1st degreeVerified267 forum posts3345/1000
5 year(s) ago
Honestly, my academy probably doesn't train this enough. A few years back we had a coach that used to always say that "striking is one of the pillars of jiu-jitsu." He would work some fundamental striking into his classes from a self-defense perspective. Every now and then we'll work a rhino block into body lock position or something similar, but admittedly this should probably be addressed more often. I think now that this thread brought it back to the forefront of my mind, I'll make that so. We have a dedicated kickboxing class, but I think it's worth drawing into actual jiu-jitsu classes too.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
5 year(s) ago
If you're doing striking in you BJJ program then it's MMA.
I am guessing would apply to modern bjj.
Old school Gracie Jiu Jitsu always had striking.
Not muay thai or boxing but punching, pisao kicking, elbows and headbutts were always a thing we trained to use, defend and also used in sparring. Not every class but at least once a week.
I can't speak for anyone else but it has always been part of my training since I started and we continue to teach and train it every other week in class and in rolling.
We are doing Jiu Jitsu definitely not MMA.

Jiu Jitsu Defined: an art of weaponless fighting employing holds, throws, and paralyzing blows to subdue or disable an opponent


Olivier Hennau
Olivier Hennau
Black belt 1st degreeVerified219 forum posts6675/1000
5 year(s) ago
If you're doing striking in you BJJ program then it's MMA.

mma, as you know it, was first created to proove effectiveness of BJJ (vale tudo japan/pride for rickson, ufc for royce) ... so yeah, basically.... :-D

Mirco
Mirco
Brown beltVerified805 forum posts5075/700
5 year(s) ago
If you're doing striking in you BJJ program then it's MMA.
I have a different opinion about that.
We, in our training group definitely dont train MMA . It is , like David Gonzales wrote. It is simple a part of our regular Jiu Jitsu curriculum....
Of course the sports based,athletic platform is the same, but the context and goal is different.

Context self defense:
BJJ with strikes: More self defense orientated. My coach calls it „BJJ vs the world“, it is more surviving against somebody who attacks you and who does not practice the same sport(„untrained opponent“).Like punch protection from bottom mount, of guard, etc...

Context Competition MMA:
MMA: two athletes, who both train the same sport and who have similar skills compete against each other under a certain ruleset with the goal of winning.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
5 year(s) ago
If you're doing striking in you BJJ program then it's MMA.
MMA does striking + grappling much much better than BJJ (unless you have a time machine, as it's possible to argue that wasn't the case 25-30 years ago or so). I have zero interest in adding strikes to my BJJ classes.

Having said that, I can understand why BJJ people who are also keen on self defence might want to add strikes without going the MMA route. To make a generalisation, in my experience the kind of person who both focuses on self defence and also wants to train BJJ tends to want a more 'traditional martial arts' vibe, which is not something you will find in the vast majority of MMA classes.
Randy
Randy
Black belt 1st degreeVerified267 forum posts3345/1000
5 year(s) ago
I firmly believe that if someone wants to train BJJ for self-defense, they are doing themselves a substantial disservice by not including strikes. You won't find too many real fights that don't incorporate some form of blunt impact, especially when in grappling/clinch range. Strikes also completely change the game regarding your application of BJJ techniques. One of the simplest examples of this is in distance management concepts. In a fight where strikes are a possibility, it is imperative to take away as much space as possible if you're not in a position to get back to your feet and create distance. "He who controls distance controls damage."

It's not about MMA for some. I absolutely agree with that. But unless you're simply doing BJJ for fun or fitness, you should at least be aware of how to deal with strikes or what positions are more vulnerable to them.
Joel Matson
Joel MatsonOP
Black beltVerified108 forum posts3910/1000
5 year(s) ago
Thanks all for the feedback.
I guess if BJJ came from judo and judo has a formalized striking curriculum, I don't think that I am too crazy adding some of it back to the classes that I teach.

Atemi waza (当て身技) or body-striking techniques were the strikes from the several ancient traditional Japanese jujitsu styles that were adopted in judo by its designer Jigorō Kanō in 1882 -Wikipedia-
Joemoplata
Joemoplata
Black belt 4th degreeVerified762 forum posts3915/1000
5 year(s) ago
I am guessing would apply to modern bjj. Old school Gracie Jiu Jitsu always had striking. Not muay thai or boxing but punching, pisao kicking, elbows and headbutts were always a thing we trained to use, defend and also used in sparring. Not every class but at least once a week. I can't speak for anyone else but it has always been part of my training since I started and we continue to teach and train it every other week in class and in rolling. We are doing Jiu Jitsu definitely not MMA. Jiu Jitsu Defined: an art of weaponless fighting employing holds, throws, and paralyzing blows to subdue or disable an opponent
Old school Gracie Jiu Jitsu had BAD striking. Why learn bad striking when you can learn good striking?
Joemoplata
Joemoplata
Black belt 4th degreeVerified762 forum posts3915/1000
5 year(s) ago
Yes We don't do strikes properly cause we have plenty of great kickboxing and muaythai gyms round and i encourage people to train it, even a little bit. Also 2/3 of my student have a decent striking level, they generally come from those discipline and want to check wrestling/grappling aspect... when i show technique, i always try to explain varient/conséquence with strikes, sport bjj, and no-gi. To me a blue belt must be able to défend and apply basic techniques even if he/she's under strike and also if the opponent do not wear a gi.
Boom.
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
5 year(s) ago
Old school Gracie Jiu Jitsu had BAD striking. Why learn bad striking when you can learn good striking?
The striking need not be perfect. It's just used to setup the transitions or subs. I think striking in jiu jitsu has come along way from the old Gracie in Action vids. Jiu jitsu is a martial art and if people only want sport thats great but they need to stop acting like fighters.
I am of the unpopular opinion that jiu jitsu is for fighting first and for sport second.
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
5 year(s) ago
Yes We don't do strikes properly cause we have plenty of great kickboxing and muaythai gyms round and i encourage people to train it, even a little bit. Also 2/3 of my student have a decent striking level, they generally come from those discipline and want to check wrestling/grappling aspect... when i show technique, i always try to explain varient/conséquence with strikes, sport bjj, and no-gi. To me a blue belt must be able to défend and apply basic techniques even if he/she's under strike and also if the opponent do not wear a gi.
For sure most of us old heads come from a striking background.
Paul Cunningham
Paul Cunningham
Black beltVerified102 forum posts2920/1000
5 year(s) ago
For me BJJ is first a means of self defense or unarmed combat, bjj was initially design and forged in battle, challenge matched the start of mma as we know it, etc.

I believe it is important to have some knowledge of sticking or how to condent with it should you be faced with it on the street.

I always tell me students that there are many aspects to jiu jitsu, there is self-defense, gi, no gi, combat jiu jitsu and jiu jitsu for mma.

They all have importance and at the end of the day, each club has to choose their own path. That said I like the idea of a jiu jitsu game that allows you to have a broader knowledge base or at least some fundamentals in all of it.
Ken Leif
Ken Leif
Black beltVerified111 forum posts7250/1000
5 year(s) ago
The only time I add striking into BJJ is when I'm rolling with good friends who I've trained striking arts with and we do it just for fun. Best part is new students don't know the connection so they think we are really fighting sometimes! haha the looks on their faces is priceless.
Jason Figliano
Jason Figliano
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified56 forum posts8340/1000
5 year(s) ago
That depends if you are training the sport or the Martial Art. All of Gracie Jiu Jitsu at its core is rooted in Self Defense, Combat and sport. If you train all three then it's the Martial art.

It's like asking do you play the North American soccer or the way the Mayans played with the severed heads of the loosers hahah
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
5 year(s) ago
That depends if you are training the sport or the Martial Art. All of Gracie Jiu Jitsu at its core is rooted in Self Defense, Combat and sport. If you train all three then it's the Martial art. It's like asking do you play the North American soccer or the way the Mayans played with the severed heads of the loosers hahah
That image of those dudes kicking heads around....lol
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
5 year(s) ago
I am of the unpopular opinion that jiu jitsu is for fighting first and for sport second.
Which makes sense, given your lineage and time in BJJ. I'd agree it used to be, back in the early to mid 1990s when you could go straight from a BJJ school into an MMA fight and not be woefully unprepared. Today, I don't think that's true: both MMA and BJJ have changed so much that I struggle to think of a BJJ school that could safely send its students directly to a legit MMA promotion with no cross-training.

Though yeah, the question of whether a BJJ school can prepare you sufficiently for a real fight is a whole other thing to MMA. My main reservation on that is most BJJ schools I've seen don't focus at all on the 'soft skills' of self defence, which I think are way more important than adding strikes. E.g., verbal de-escalation, dealing with chemical change (alcohol and adrenaline especially), understanding legal ramifications, being aware of your environment, etc.

All that aside, one of the many good things about BJJ is that it is broad enough to appeal to lots of different people. So, somebody like me who doesn't care about self defence or competition can enjoy BJJ, people who are concerned about self defence can find schools suited to them too, so can the people who are 100% focused on winning medals.
Randy
Randy
Black belt 1st degreeVerified267 forum posts3345/1000
5 year(s) ago
The striking need not be perfect. It's just used to setup the transitions or subs. I think striking in jiu jitsu has come along way from the old Gracie in Action vids. Jiu jitsu is a martial art and if people only want sport thats great but they need to stop acting like fighters. I am of the unpopular opinion that jiu jitsu is for fighting first and for sport second.
Yep, if you are using strikes as a force multiplier to make your grappling more effective then the "technique" may not look as polished as a kickboxer. But when is the last time you saw a polished kickboxer (not in MMA) striking on the ground to transition positions or techniques?

We encourage our students to cross train in kickboxing, because if you have the opportunity it will help develop your well-roundedness and preparation to train in some fundamental technical striking. That's why our kickboxing class isn't geared toward developing competitive boxers or kickboxers. Our school is very aware of its identity, and so we teach sound fundamentals and develop good striking. If a student expresses their interest in competitive striking, then I usually refer them to one of two very solid local fight coaches. I'll happily hold their water bottle in the corner, but they are best suited getting coaching leading up to their fight from someone who specializes in that.

There are numerous motivations for training in martial arts. I think it's extremely important to identify and state your purpose, and then set up your training to address the unique needs for your purpose. You can have more than one, but just stay real to your reason. I train for my job (which incorporates the need for self-defense application) but also for fun and passion. I'm a lifetime martial artist, and plan on doing BJJ until I can't move anymore. With a dual purpose, I have to ensure that within my training sessions I train in a way that is conducive to self-defense, and then also incorporate rolls that are specfically geared toward my BJJ development.

To each their own, just be real to yourself. BJJ for life!
Mirco
Mirco
Brown beltVerified805 forum posts5075/700
5 year(s) ago
Yep, if you are using strikes as a force multiplier to make your grappling more effective then the 'technique' may not look as polished as a kickboxer. But when is the last time you saw a polished kickboxer (not in MMA) striking on the ground to transition positions or techniques? We encourage our students to cross train in kickboxing, because if you have the opportunity it will help develop your well-roundedness and preparation to train in some fundamental technical striking. That's why our kickboxing class isn't geared toward developing competitive boxers or kickboxers. Our school is very aware of its identity, and so we teach sound fundamentals and develop good striking. If a student expresses their interest in competitive striking, then I usually refer them to one of two very solid local fight coaches. I'll happily hold their water bottle in the corner, but they are best suited getting coaching leading up to their fight from someone who specializes in that. There are numerous motivations for training in martial arts. I think it's extremely important to identify and state your purpose, and then set up your training to address the unique needs for your purpose. You can have more than one, but just stay real to your reason. I train for my job (which incorporates the need for self-defense application) but also for fun and passion. I'm a lifetime martial artist, and plan on doing BJJ until I can't move anymore. With a dual purpose, I have to ensure that within my training sessions I train in a way that is conducive to self-defense, and then also incorporate rolls that are specfically geared toward my BJJ development. To each their own, just be real to yourself. BJJ for life!
Well written! I am in a similar Situation like you and Share the same opinion!
R. David Gonzalez
R. David Gonzalez
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4764 forum posts34325/1000
5 year(s) ago
Which makes sense, given your lineage and time in BJJ. I'd agree it used to be, back in the early to mid 1990s when you could go straight from a BJJ school into an MMA fight and not be woefully unprepared. Today, I don't think that's true: both MMA and BJJ have changed so much that I struggle to think of a BJJ school that could safely send its students directly to a legit MMA promotion with no cross-training. Though yeah, the question of whether a BJJ school can prepare you sufficiently for a real fight is a whole other thing to MMA. My main reservation on that is most BJJ schools I've seen don't focus at all on the 'soft skills' of self defence, which I think are way more important than adding strikes. E.g., verbal de-escalation, dealing with chemical change (alcohol and adrenaline especially), understanding legal ramifications, being aware of your environment, etc. All that aside, one of the many good things about BJJ is that it is broad enough to appeal to lots of different people. So, somebody like me who doesn't care about self defence or competition can enjoy BJJ, people who are concerned about self defence can find schools suited to them too, so can the people who are 100% focused on winning medals.
This is why I always say different strokes for different folks. Everyone is looking for something that suits their needs. No issues with that.
As for the verbal deescalation and dealing with drunks etc.. we cover that in our fundamentals class. Makes me laugh when we are working on it but the student is mute and does not use any verbal communication to negotiate with the aggressor. You'll hear me yelling from across the mat, "You have to talk to them!" Lol
For me Gracie Jiu Jitsu has always been about fighting. The sportive aspect is a bonus to our training. It makes it real fun. I love the sportive part but when I teach my kids, I teach them how to fight first and then how to play. Makes them well rounded and keeps it all fresh and interesting. I don't fault anyone who does not see it that way.
To each his/her/it own.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
5 year(s) ago
As for the verbal deescalation and dealing with drunks etc.. we cover that in our fundamentals class. Makes me laugh when we are working on it but the student is mute and does not use any verbal communication to negotiate with the aggressor. You'll hear me yelling from across the mat, "You have to talk to them!" Lol
That's very good to hear! I wish every BJJ instructor who claimed to teach self defence followed your example. :)
Mirco
Mirco
Brown beltVerified805 forum posts5075/700
5 year(s) ago
That's very good to hear! I wish every BJJ instructor who claimed to teach self defence followed your example. :)
I think this is Mandatory and Standard, if you honestly teach self defense. All the soft Skills like „verbal Judo“, managing unknown contacts (credits to Craig Douglas); deeskalation, pre contact cues, the whole pre- and Post conflict.... for me, as a fulltime professionell defensive tactics instructor in LEO environment it is pretty normal to teach that in my Jiu Jitsu classes, too....
Joemoplata
Joemoplata
Black belt 4th degreeVerified762 forum posts3915/1000
5 year(s) ago
The striking need not be perfect. It's just used to setup the transitions or subs. I think striking in jiu jitsu has come along way from the old Gracie in Action vids. Jiu jitsu is a martial art and if people only want sport thats great but they need to stop acting like fighters. I am of the unpopular opinion that jiu jitsu is for fighting first and for sport second.
It wasn't perfect, don't worry. In fact, it wasn't even good. BJJ is grappling. It's okay that's it's only good for grappling. You can use bad strikes in your training to justify how good your grappling is. But that's no different than good strikers teaching bad grappling to justify their striking.
Joemoplata
Joemoplata
Black belt 4th degreeVerified762 forum posts3915/1000
5 year(s) ago
How many people on here saying that include striking in their BJJ curriculum have had high level instruction in striking? When I say high level I mean from a professional Muay Thai fighter, boxer, kickboxer or MMA fighter? Would you consider yourself capable of standing toe-to-toe with another decent striker without having to take them down to stay safe? Just curious.

EDIT: Phil Dunlap you don't even need to bother answering that question!
Edited 5 year(s) ago

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