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Evolution of BJJ / Grappling teaching
5 year(s) ago • 2645 views • 27 replies
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
There seems to be an interesting evolution in teaching / knowledge transmission in BJJ / Grappling.
Phase 1. Only a handful of competent teachers & teams exist. Behaviour is tribal and near cultish: my kung fu will beat your kung fu, sensei vs sensei. Knowledge and skill only shared to the in-group. No notable publicly available instructionals exist. Only a handful of tournaments exist. Knowledge is guarded like the nucleair launch codes.
Phase 2. The first instructional tapes and books enter the market. Knowledge becomes more widely available, but quality differs immensely. However, schools are still being run like tribes / cults. A bit more tournamens pop up. Cross-training is still frouned upon, but starts to happen more, due to practicioners meeting each other in tournament settings.
Phase 3. The internet explodes the wide-spread knowledge distribution. But also of training attitudes. Cross-training happens more & more, as do tournaments. However, instruction is still centered around step-by-step, detailed explanation of the minutae of moves. How to execute a move is taught like a technical manual. However, the overall meta-games are not adressed.
Phase 4. The era of system-based and conceptual teaching. Meta-games, etc. I guess we're here now.
Your thoughts?
Phase 1. Only a handful of competent teachers & teams exist. Behaviour is tribal and near cultish: my kung fu will beat your kung fu, sensei vs sensei. Knowledge and skill only shared to the in-group. No notable publicly available instructionals exist. Only a handful of tournaments exist. Knowledge is guarded like the nucleair launch codes.
Phase 2. The first instructional tapes and books enter the market. Knowledge becomes more widely available, but quality differs immensely. However, schools are still being run like tribes / cults. A bit more tournamens pop up. Cross-training is still frouned upon, but starts to happen more, due to practicioners meeting each other in tournament settings.
Phase 3. The internet explodes the wide-spread knowledge distribution. But also of training attitudes. Cross-training happens more & more, as do tournaments. However, instruction is still centered around step-by-step, detailed explanation of the minutae of moves. How to execute a move is taught like a technical manual. However, the overall meta-games are not adressed.
Phase 4. The era of system-based and conceptual teaching. Meta-games, etc. I guess we're here now.
Your thoughts?
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I don't know what a meta game is. Is that focus drilling and sparring? Lol
SZBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I don't know what a meta game is. Is that focus drilling and sparring? Lol
Me either. I guess I'm lost. I thought we were still doing the micro adjustment thing. Lol
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Me either. I guess I'm lost. I thought we were still doing the micro adjustment thing. Lol
Lol I'm not an egghead so alot of the terms used nowadays slip right past me. Too old for the new language.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
meta
1
[ met-uh ]
adjective
pertaining to or noting a story, conversation, character, etc., that consciously references or comments upon its own subject or features, often in the form of parody: A movie about making a movie is just so meta—especially when the actors criticize the acting.
pertaining to or noting an abstract, high-level analysis or commentary, especially one that consciously references something of its own type.
noun
a consciously and playfully self-referential story, conversation, etc.: That dialogue was an example of meta at its best.
an abstract, high-level analysis or commentary: writing a meta to explain the character’s motivation.
verb (used without object)
to analyze or comment on something in a meta way: I spend more time metaing about the show than actually watching it.
https://www.dictionary.co[...]rowse/meta
1
[ met-uh ]
adjective
pertaining to or noting a story, conversation, character, etc., that consciously references or comments upon its own subject or features, often in the form of parody: A movie about making a movie is just so meta—especially when the actors criticize the acting.
pertaining to or noting an abstract, high-level analysis or commentary, especially one that consciously references something of its own type.
noun
a consciously and playfully self-referential story, conversation, etc.: That dialogue was an example of meta at its best.
an abstract, high-level analysis or commentary: writing a meta to explain the character’s motivation.
verb (used without object)
to analyze or comment on something in a meta way: I spend more time metaing about the show than actually watching it.
https://www.dictionary.co[...]rowse/meta
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
My reference for 'meta' comes from my HTML coding days 'meta description' ...
Anyhow, yes I would say we are somewhere between Phases 3~4 ... the availability of information, demystifying the legends, no more hear say if it wasn't posted online or instagrammed, and the existence of the BJJ Police, quickly and effectively separated the wheat from the chaff.
It will no doubt continue to (d)evolve and I just fear that it will become mainstream in another 5-10 years like TMA's as I already see signs of this happening. Eg. Back in Phase 1-2, belt gradings were awarded by anyone ranked 1 belt above you. Now it's minimum 3rd degree (according to IBJJF) etc. I vividly recall reading about displays of medals and trophies in the academy, photos of past masters and citations of lineage as signs of McDojo, which is ubiquitous in most modern academies nowadays. The introduction of kids ranks/belts - unheard of in the late 1990's and early 2000's in my neck of the woods.
Anyhow, yes I would say we are somewhere between Phases 3~4 ... the availability of information, demystifying the legends, no more hear say if it wasn't posted online or instagrammed, and the existence of the BJJ Police, quickly and effectively separated the wheat from the chaff.
It will no doubt continue to (d)evolve and I just fear that it will become mainstream in another 5-10 years like TMA's as I already see signs of this happening. Eg. Back in Phase 1-2, belt gradings were awarded by anyone ranked 1 belt above you. Now it's minimum 3rd degree (according to IBJJF) etc. I vividly recall reading about displays of medals and trophies in the academy, photos of past masters and citations of lineage as signs of McDojo, which is ubiquitous in most modern academies nowadays. The introduction of kids ranks/belts - unheard of in the late 1990's and early 2000's in my neck of the woods.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think that your descriptions of the BJJ cultures all still exist and have always existed. In our area are there DOZENS of BJJ schools within a 60 mile radius. Most of them are cultish and discourage cross-training. One of them has the following statement on their website:
"Non-Gracie American coaches are giving out black belts much sooner, leaving teachers with less qualifications, skills, and experience to teach Jiu-Jitsu as a black belt with direct lineage to a Gracie family member. These people are not as experienced or qualified to teach Jiu-Jitsu as a black belt with direct lineage to a Gracie family member."
I have a new member to our gym that trained under the same direct lineage as this gym and he said that training with us would mean he would not be allowed to come back to his original gym.
Cult.
So this is still out there and is probably still the dominant BJJ culture.
As for your Phase 4 description. I think I hear the name "John Danaher" in my gym everyday. And the funny part of that, for me, is that I have been hearing that name since I started training in 1998. People from within Renzo's camp have been suggesting that John was a significant reason for the success of the Renzo BJJ team since as far back as I can remember. They also said all the same things about Greg Jackson and his "game theory" approach. Two wildly successful coaches who never competed and applied a scientific method towards teaching. But neither are new and their methods have been being used for 20+ years.
In other words, I think your phases have all always existed and still continue to exist today so I wouldn't really call it an "evolution".
"Non-Gracie American coaches are giving out black belts much sooner, leaving teachers with less qualifications, skills, and experience to teach Jiu-Jitsu as a black belt with direct lineage to a Gracie family member. These people are not as experienced or qualified to teach Jiu-Jitsu as a black belt with direct lineage to a Gracie family member."
I have a new member to our gym that trained under the same direct lineage as this gym and he said that training with us would mean he would not be allowed to come back to his original gym.
Cult.
So this is still out there and is probably still the dominant BJJ culture.
As for your Phase 4 description. I think I hear the name "John Danaher" in my gym everyday. And the funny part of that, for me, is that I have been hearing that name since I started training in 1998. People from within Renzo's camp have been suggesting that John was a significant reason for the success of the Renzo BJJ team since as far back as I can remember. They also said all the same things about Greg Jackson and his "game theory" approach. Two wildly successful coaches who never competed and applied a scientific method towards teaching. But neither are new and their methods have been being used for 20+ years.
In other words, I think your phases have all always existed and still continue to exist today so I wouldn't really call it an "evolution".
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
All the new knowledge certainly affects competitors who are sucking it up quickly as they need it, but is average Joe bjj guy watching them? When I was teaching, I was shocked how many people would not know who I was talking about when I'd show something and say, "this is from so and so, google him for more details if you like it". Similarly schools focused on competition have instructors who need to keep up with the latest greatest, but that is not the majority.
Also, while meta has been defined in this thread, thank you Vince, wtf is a meta game in bjj?
Also, while meta has been defined in this thread, thank you Vince, wtf is a meta game in bjj?
Edited 5 year(s) ago
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
wtf is a meta game in bjj?
I would think Meta-cognition would be more appropriate/accurate. Someone who specializes in one particular aspect of the game and it's related problem solving, e.g. specialist in a particular guard or submission and the various set ups to get there consistently.
I venture that by purple belt most people already do this subconsciously and not until they are ready or required to coach others they never have to break down into words their thought process, technique tetris and work on their communication skills but as all black belts know, it remains impossible to know ALL elements, strategies, concepts of JJ since it's constantly evolving and improving.
************
Metacognition is an awareness of one's own thought processes and an understanding of the patterns behind them. The term comes from the root word meta, meaning "beyond", or "on top of".[1] Metacognition can take many forms, such as reflecting on one's own ways of thinking and knowing when and how to use particular strategies for problem-solving.[1] There are generally two components of metacognition: (1) knowledge about cognition and (2) regulation of cognition.[2]
Metamemory, defined as knowing about memory and mnemonic strategies, is an especially important form of metacognition.[3] Academic research on metacognitive processing across cultures is in the early stages, but there are indications that further work may provide better outcomes in cross-cultural learning between teachers and students.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/[...]acognition
I venture that by purple belt most people already do this subconsciously and not until they are ready or required to coach others they never have to break down into words their thought process, technique tetris and work on their communication skills but as all black belts know, it remains impossible to know ALL elements, strategies, concepts of JJ since it's constantly evolving and improving.
************
Metacognition is an awareness of one's own thought processes and an understanding of the patterns behind them. The term comes from the root word meta, meaning "beyond", or "on top of".[1] Metacognition can take many forms, such as reflecting on one's own ways of thinking and knowing when and how to use particular strategies for problem-solving.[1] There are generally two components of metacognition: (1) knowledge about cognition and (2) regulation of cognition.[2]
Metamemory, defined as knowing about memory and mnemonic strategies, is an especially important form of metacognition.[3] Academic research on metacognitive processing across cultures is in the early stages, but there are indications that further work may provide better outcomes in cross-cultural learning between teachers and students.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/[...]acognition
Edited 5 year(s) ago
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Like Vince said. A mega game in bjj would be a super refined system of interconnected moves and strategies. Catered for competition.
For instance, the 50/50 game, worm guard, the berimbolo/crab ride, the modern leglock systems, marcelo gracia's armdrag/butterfly, terere's passing.
So competition prep becomes an arms race to figure out which system can shut down the other.
What comes to mind, is how Atos developed the 50/50 to shut down Cobrinha.
Or how the various dds approaches are designed to exploit weakness in other games.
For instance, the 50/50 game, worm guard, the berimbolo/crab ride, the modern leglock systems, marcelo gracia's armdrag/butterfly, terere's passing.
So competition prep becomes an arms race to figure out which system can shut down the other.
What comes to mind, is how Atos developed the 50/50 to shut down Cobrinha.
Or how the various dds approaches are designed to exploit weakness in other games.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
now I feel like having some chocolate...
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
So a meta game, is just one's game? I live for half guard so my meta game is half guard?
I appreciate all the work in explaining it that you guys are doing, maybe I'm just not getting it (see David's meme lol), but I see no difference between one's game(s) and one's meta game(s).
I appreciate all the work in explaining it that you guys are doing, maybe I'm just not getting it (see David's meme lol), but I see no difference between one's game(s) and one's meta game(s).
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
So a meta game, is just one's game? I live for half guard so my meta game is half guard? I appreciate all the work in explaining it that you guys are doing, maybe I'm just not getting it (see David's meme lol), but I see no difference between one's game(s) and one's meta game(s).
Not quite.
No matter what your game is. If you compete in no-gi, you pretty much HAVE to know some of the modern leglock system. Even if you don't play it yourself. You have to address it, and come up with a solution. That's what's being meant with the meta game.
But i feel like we're getting into the weeds here.
The name meta is unnecessary confusing.
Let's just say, that there's more & more emphasis on SYSTEMS of techniques, as opposed to meticulously refining single moves.
Agree?
No matter what your game is. If you compete in no-gi, you pretty much HAVE to know some of the modern leglock system. Even if you don't play it yourself. You have to address it, and come up with a solution. That's what's being meant with the meta game.
But i feel like we're getting into the weeds here.
The name meta is unnecessary confusing.
Let's just say, that there's more & more emphasis on SYSTEMS of techniques, as opposed to meticulously refining single moves.
Agree?
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Ok I understand that.
As for systems, haven't they always been there? Lots of old school instructionals had them. Take Telles turtle guard series, if you watch the whole thing, it's a system addressing several things from that position. Same with Caio's 111 half guard etc. Maybe the instructionals now are better ordered in what to address and when to do it, but the old ones also had that, just a bit more haphazard.
I think what's going on now is we're seeing more and more mini games within the old school games. For example, butterfly now has branched in to several new paths, to the legs, inversions etc.
Not quite. No matter what your game is. If you compete in no-gi, you pretty much HAVE to know some of the modern leglock system. Even if you don't play it yourself. You have to address it, and come up with a solution. That's what's being meant with the meta game. But i feel like we're getting into the weeds here. The name meta is unnecessary confusing. Let's just say, that there's more & more emphasis on SYSTEMS of techniques, as opposed to meticulously refining single moves. Agree?
Ok I understand that.
As for systems, haven't they always been there? Lots of old school instructionals had them. Take Telles turtle guard series, if you watch the whole thing, it's a system addressing several things from that position. Same with Caio's 111 half guard etc. Maybe the instructionals now are better ordered in what to address and when to do it, but the old ones also had that, just a bit more haphazard.
I think what's going on now is we're seeing more and more mini games within the old school games. For example, butterfly now has branched in to several new paths, to the legs, inversions etc.
SFBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Meta is a self-referential term; metadata is data about data, the metagame is the game played with the game. So, choosing your strategy based on the rules and the expected strategies of your opponents.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Meta is a self-referential term; metadata is data about data, the metagame is the game played with the game. So, choosing your strategy based on the rules and the expected strategies of your opponents.
Herr Freeman just dropped the truth bomb of clarity, in this incredibly murky thread.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think the next big thing will be the red pill.
JVBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
In addition to systems based instruction and meta, I think curriculum based learning and running competition programs similar to how other professional sports programs run, rather than just having tough people scrap hard all the time to get ready for competition. I think it seems like some schools are starting to have long term development programs for their child athletes as well.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
In addition to systems based instruction and meta, I think curriculum based learning and running competition programs similar to how other professional sports programs run, rather than just having tough people scrap hard all the time to get ready for competition. I think it seems like some schools are starting to have long term development programs for their child athletes as well.
Aha, agreed! This topic of long term player development was discussed elsewhere on the forum. My daughter does judo, and over here that sport has a fantastic approach for keeping the kids engaged.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Ok I understand that. As for systems, haven't they always been there? Lots of old school instructionals had them. Take Telles turtle guard series, if you watch the whole thing, it's a system addressing several things from that position. Same with Caio's 111 half guard etc. Maybe the instructionals now are better ordered in what to address and when to do it, but the old ones also had that, just a bit more haphazard. I think what's going on now is we're seeing more and more mini games within the old school games. For example, butterfly now has branched in to several new paths, to the legs, inversions etc.
Exactly.
JVBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Aha, agreed! This topic of long term player development was discussed elsewhere on the forum. My daughter does judo, and over here that sport has a fantastic approach for keeping the kids engaged.
Very cool, I’ll look around! Interested in reading different takes on this!
ANBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
i always thought when they talk about meta in jiu jitsu they mean a sum of 2 things
- whats in currently
- and what works currently
so you take all of jiu jitsu and filter it by whats good and works well and whats liked and being done alot
and there you have your meta
but its still a bit tricky, for example when lachlan giles talks about the current meta in bjj he probably means whats done mostly and has success on the highest level
if some dude who just competes in regional events talks about meta he probably just means whats cool and whats done around in his area what he has to be aware of and ready for in his area when competing
just my hopefully correct dummy explanation
also when you talk about your own meta then i fully agree with Mr. Freemans definition
- whats in currently
- and what works currently
so you take all of jiu jitsu and filter it by whats good and works well and whats liked and being done alot
and there you have your meta
but its still a bit tricky, for example when lachlan giles talks about the current meta in bjj he probably means whats done mostly and has success on the highest level
if some dude who just competes in regional events talks about meta he probably just means whats cool and whats done around in his area what he has to be aware of and ready for in his area when competing
just my hopefully correct dummy explanation
also when you talk about your own meta then i fully agree with Mr. Freemans definition
Edited 5 year(s) ago
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
And the you have unique individuals like mr. Neufang who has a game that transcends the most meta of meta's.
Tap people with the strangest, most confusingly weird stuff THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST!!
Tap people with the strangest, most confusingly weird stuff THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST!!
ANBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
And the you have unique individuals like mr. Neufang who has a game that transcends the most meta of meta's. Tap people with the strangest, most confusingly weird stuff THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST!!
transcendence, weirdness, non existant yet it is there like a glitch in the matrix...
thank you for your kind words dear sir i couldnt ask for more praise
btw it got way weirder since the last time we met :)
im slowly reaching my final form
thank you for your kind words dear sir i couldnt ask for more praise
btw it got way weirder since the last time we met :)
im slowly reaching my final form
ANBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
And the you have unique individuals like mr. Neufang who has a game that transcends the most meta of meta's. Tap people with the strangest, most confusingly weird stuff THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST!!
said with smartass words:
one could say im in constant search for outer-meta, or rather trying to expand general meta.
one could say im in constant search for outer-meta, or rather trying to expand general meta.
JLBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
META — Most Effective Tactics Available
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
And the you have unique individuals like mr. Neufang who has a game that transcends the most meta of meta's. Tap people with the strangest, most confusingly weird stuff THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST!!
As per wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/[...]Metagaming, Neufang is abiding by the correct definition of meta gaming. Everyone else, not so much.
Metagame, Hypergame,[1] or game about the game, is an approach to a game that transcends or operates outside of the prescribed rules of the game, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.
Metagame, Hypergame,[1] or game about the game, is an approach to a game that transcends or operates outside of the prescribed rules of the game, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.
