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Brazilian Jiu Jitsu vs American Jiu Jitsu. Thoughts?
5 year(s) ago • 3572 views • 64 replies
AJBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I don't have a specific opinion on the subject as I'm just a purple belt still finding his way.
However the more and more I study the art and move up through the ranks, I find this argument/debate coming up.
Interested to hear/read the opinions of my fellow Jiu Jitsu players. Especially upper belts who've been at this game for awhile.
Thanks for the knowledge ahead of time -AJ
However the more and more I study the art and move up through the ranks, I find this argument/debate coming up.
Interested to hear/read the opinions of my fellow Jiu Jitsu players. Especially upper belts who've been at this game for awhile.
Thanks for the knowledge ahead of time -AJ
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
What's your question?
Are they seperate styles?
Is one better than the other?
Should we differentiate those styles by country in the first place?
Or should be just call it Jiu-Jitsu and be done with it? At the risk of giving shitty traditional jujutsu the image of legitimacy.
Is there still a need to underline the fact we're talking about a particular style that was developed in Brazil, or has BJJ established itself to such a dominant extent that any reference to Jiu-Jitsu implies said Brazilian variation?
All interesting questions! Let's pick one (or come up with another)
Are they seperate styles?
Is one better than the other?
Should we differentiate those styles by country in the first place?
Or should be just call it Jiu-Jitsu and be done with it? At the risk of giving shitty traditional jujutsu the image of legitimacy.
Is there still a need to underline the fact we're talking about a particular style that was developed in Brazil, or has BJJ established itself to such a dominant extent that any reference to Jiu-Jitsu implies said Brazilian variation?
All interesting questions! Let's pick one (or come up with another)
AJBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I like all those questions. lol
The two that stick out to me are….Are they different styles and has Bjj established itself to such a dominant extent that any reference to jiu-jitsu implies it’s Brazilian.
The two that stick out to me are….Are they different styles and has Bjj established itself to such a dominant extent that any reference to jiu-jitsu implies it’s Brazilian.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's just Jiu Jitsu.
I think the days of adding Brazilian to differentiate from the standing Japanese Jiu Jitsu that was being taught are pretty much over. Adding American just makes it worse. The art is Japanese. Do we really want to go down paths similar to Kempo vs American Kempo etc?
Gi and no gi, that's what's left.
I think the days of adding Brazilian to differentiate from the standing Japanese Jiu Jitsu that was being taught are pretty much over. Adding American just makes it worse. The art is Japanese. Do we really want to go down paths similar to Kempo vs American Kempo etc?
Gi and no gi, that's what's left.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I personally wonder if Jiu-Jitsu is even the correct term for any of this nowadays. I think, at this point, we may as well leave out all country names and just call what we do Submission Grappling both with and without the Gi
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I personally wonder if Jiu-Jitsu is even the correct term for any of this nowadays. I think, at this point, we may as well leave out all country names and just call what we do Submission Grappling both with and without the Gi
Not a fan of submission grappling ... I don't do the same thing as what Ken Shamrock did lol.
TRBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Not a fan of submission grappling ... I don't do the same thing as what Ken Shamrock did lol.
Yes but to be fair, he did get a heel hook in UFC 1. At this point with everything that has been included into the art its more an amalgamation of all the grappling styles with the least restrictive rule-set, sort of like MMA but just for grappling.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Yes but to be fair, he did get a heel hook in UFC 1. At this point with everything that has been included into the art its more an amalgamation of all the grappling styles with the least restrictive rule-set, sort of like MMA but just for grappling.
My point was more about the rivalry from back in the day. Lion's Den guys were submission grapplers and I did not start jiu jitsu because I wanted to be like them :)
And I'd argue the old school jiu jitsu was more like MMA than what is happening now, but that's another thread.
And I'd argue the old school jiu jitsu was more like MMA than what is happening now, but that's another thread.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Are they different styles?
Yes. But...
Only in so far as that American BJJ has an absolute weath of knowledge available, when it comes to teaching & training methodogy, stemming from the deep college wrestling traditions. And other scholastic sports, for that matter. In Brazil so such well organized tradition exists.
I'd say that if your coach / lineage has roots in the American wrestling tradition, you've probably been learning a slightly different art than if you'd learned it in Brazil. Not when it comes to technique, but more the way the moves taught and pressure tested.
In that aspect, the systematic / sportive approach beats the blind drilling of moves and endless non specific sparring that you might encounter in more traditional schools.
Yes. But...
Only in so far as that American BJJ has an absolute weath of knowledge available, when it comes to teaching & training methodogy, stemming from the deep college wrestling traditions. And other scholastic sports, for that matter. In Brazil so such well organized tradition exists.
I'd say that if your coach / lineage has roots in the American wrestling tradition, you've probably been learning a slightly different art than if you'd learned it in Brazil. Not when it comes to technique, but more the way the moves taught and pressure tested.
In that aspect, the systematic / sportive approach beats the blind drilling of moves and endless non specific sparring that you might encounter in more traditional schools.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
When people ask me I just call it grappling.
If they want more specifics I will refer to it as BJJ or GJJ.
Honestly people rarely ask.
Calling it American Jiu Jitsu is just another way to package and brand something for the general consumer. That is just how Americans are wired.
If they want more specifics I will refer to it as BJJ or GJJ.
Honestly people rarely ask.
Calling it American Jiu Jitsu is just another way to package and brand something for the general consumer. That is just how Americans are wired.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a thing. There's an organization called the International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation (and the CBJJ before that) that created the sport. I know that most people here prefer to hate the IBJJF but it doesn't matter. It exists and outlines the details of the sport.
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is another thing. They are not the same thing but it is trademarked and copyrighted so it's a thing as well.
American Jiu-Jitsu has nothing like that. Until then, it's not a thing. It's just stupid Americans thinking they are patriotic.
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is another thing. They are not the same thing but it is trademarked and copyrighted so it's a thing as well.
American Jiu-Jitsu has nothing like that. Until then, it's not a thing. It's just stupid Americans thinking they are patriotic.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I still like Jiu jitsu because it has the components of "real fighting, sport and art (courtesy Chris Haueters, look up the speech in depth). Submission grappling puts the emphasis on sport only.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's just Jiu Jitsu. I think the days of adding Brazilian to differentiate from the standing Japanese Jiu Jitsu that was being taught are pretty much over. Adding American just makes it worse. The art is Japanese. Do we really want to go down paths similar to Kempo vs American Kempo etc? Gi and no gi, that's what's left.
The art is Japanese?
That is as bad as the rest, or worse.
The "art" is international.
Even for Judo, Kano's genius was a very good student, and then professor of Western science.
And Judo borrowed heavily from Western wrestling, as well as Sumo, which in turn was an import of Mongol Belt Wrestling.
"The art is Japanese..."
The pajamas might be, when they are not made in Pakistan, India, and China.
But apart from that, a joint lock or a choke or a throw knows no country, and really never did.
Comic book style rewrites of history aside.
That is as bad as the rest, or worse.
The "art" is international.
Even for Judo, Kano's genius was a very good student, and then professor of Western science.
And Judo borrowed heavily from Western wrestling, as well as Sumo, which in turn was an import of Mongol Belt Wrestling.
"The art is Japanese..."
The pajamas might be, when they are not made in Pakistan, India, and China.
But apart from that, a joint lock or a choke or a throw knows no country, and really never did.
Comic book style rewrites of history aside.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Why not Aggresive Yoga? :)
CBBrown beltVerified
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think involuntary yoga is more accurate here. ;)
Because you could be the one voluntarily applying it to someone else /s
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
The art is Japanese? That is as bad as the rest, or worse. The 'art' is international. Even for Judo, Kano's genius was a very good student, and then professor of Western science. And Judo borrowed heavily from Western wrestling, as well as Sumo, which in turn was an import of Mongol Belt Wrestling. 'The art is Japanese...' The pajamas might be, when they are not made in Pakistan, India, and China. But apart from that, a joint lock or a choke or a throw knows no country, and really never did. Comic book style rewrites of history aside.
By your logic, you would say Judo is not Japanese? How about Karate?
Credit should be given where it is due. The Japanese aggregated and formalized the fighting systems which they then called Jiu Jitsu (or Ju Jutsu if you're going to be pedantic).
Credit should be given where it is due. The Japanese aggregated and formalized the fighting systems which they then called Jiu Jitsu (or Ju Jutsu if you're going to be pedantic).
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think it kind of makes sense to call it BJJ because that’s the established name of the sport and ruleset. Just like there are different variations of many other sports out there, especially wrestling type sports.
If one thinks “Brazilian” is a silly name then just picking another country denominator doesn’t fix anything. It’s for marketing and patriotic reasons. It would be as stupid as me calling what I teach for “Caribbean Jiu Jitsu” or “Danish Jiu Jitsu”. The sport is global, country borders doesn’t have much/any influence these days.
If one thinks “Brazilian” is a silly name then just picking another country denominator doesn’t fix anything. It’s for marketing and patriotic reasons. It would be as stupid as me calling what I teach for “Caribbean Jiu Jitsu” or “Danish Jiu Jitsu”. The sport is global, country borders doesn’t have much/any influence these days.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's all struggle snuggles. The brazilians call it jiu-jitsu. Both names are cool in my books.
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
It's all struggle snuggles. The brazilians call it jiu-jitsu. Both names are cool in my books.
I am sooooo renaming my BJJ chat group to The Struggle Snuggle Squad.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
We're getting off track with the names..
The main question is.
Are the schools that can be lumped in with American JJ doing something fundamentally different than school doing Brazilian JJ?
My point: yes, but only if the blend with collegiate wrestling is happening.
The main question is.
Are the schools that can be lumped in with American JJ doing something fundamentally different than school doing Brazilian JJ?
My point: yes, but only if the blend with collegiate wrestling is happening.
ADPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Whenever I read about "American jiu jitsu" I think "ethno-centric marketing tactic by a self-centered guy who can't see further than the tip of his d... nose".
CBBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
We're getting off track with the names.. The main question is. Are the schools that can be lumped in with American JJ doing something fundamentally different than school doing Brazilian JJ? My point: yes, but only if the blend with collegiate wrestling is happening.
I don't actually think so. As long as the techniques are legal, I see no difference. Especially as one of the defining characteristics to BJJ is the relaxed rules and ability to adapt and add new things.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
By your logic, you would say Judo is not Japanese? How about Karate? Credit should be given where it is due. The Japanese aggregated and formalized the fighting systems which they then called Jiu Jitsu (or Ju Jutsu if you're going to be pedantic).
Judo was largely borrowed from western wrestling techniques, and Sumo, which itself came from Mongol belt wrestling.
Karate was an import from China.
Maeda spent much more time training and competing out of catch wrestling gyms than he spent training or competing in Japan.
Carlos and Helio Gracie's approach to their system was a rejection of the sportification of Judo.
It is true that players like Osvaldo Alves brought in a lot seriously good techniques into Gracie Jiu-Jitsu from Japanese Judo, which raised the bar for BJJ.
And the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu system benefited a lot from judo technicians like George Medhi, and all the Catch Wrestlers (aka Luta Livre) they trained with and recruited.
Just as it is true, that Rolls Gracie Sr. brought in a lot of seriously good wrestling and Sambo techniques from cross competing in those sports.
The pajamas are Japanese in style.
But, let's not read too much into the comic book version of the history.
There are vases, and art depicting just about every submission used today from ancient Greece, and the Roman Empire.
And on the walls of Egyptian tombs that were old when the Ancient Greeks were new have depictions of wide variety of throws, and holds.
Let's not forget that jacket wrestling and no jacket wrestling, including with chokes, throws, and submission holds were practiced and competed in the American Colonies long before Kano was born, and before and after the American Revolutionary War in "Scuffle Bees".
And before that, in Europe.
There is nothing new, nor recent about what we do.
It is sometimes rebranded, sometimes rediscovered, rulesets come, and rulesets go, but what we do is as old as our species is, more or less.
Japan has no special claim to martial arts, and in fact, is a relative late comer to literacy, science, and martial disciplines, compared to its Asian neighbors, or for that matter Europe.
But people love Samurai (not to mention ninja) revisionist histories, just like they love Dracula stories, bullshit stories of knightly chivalry, and comic books.
Karate was an import from China.
Maeda spent much more time training and competing out of catch wrestling gyms than he spent training or competing in Japan.
Carlos and Helio Gracie's approach to their system was a rejection of the sportification of Judo.
It is true that players like Osvaldo Alves brought in a lot seriously good techniques into Gracie Jiu-Jitsu from Japanese Judo, which raised the bar for BJJ.
And the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu system benefited a lot from judo technicians like George Medhi, and all the Catch Wrestlers (aka Luta Livre) they trained with and recruited.
Just as it is true, that Rolls Gracie Sr. brought in a lot of seriously good wrestling and Sambo techniques from cross competing in those sports.
The pajamas are Japanese in style.
But, let's not read too much into the comic book version of the history.
There are vases, and art depicting just about every submission used today from ancient Greece, and the Roman Empire.
And on the walls of Egyptian tombs that were old when the Ancient Greeks were new have depictions of wide variety of throws, and holds.
Let's not forget that jacket wrestling and no jacket wrestling, including with chokes, throws, and submission holds were practiced and competed in the American Colonies long before Kano was born, and before and after the American Revolutionary War in "Scuffle Bees".
And before that, in Europe.
There is nothing new, nor recent about what we do.
It is sometimes rebranded, sometimes rediscovered, rulesets come, and rulesets go, but what we do is as old as our species is, more or less.
Japan has no special claim to martial arts, and in fact, is a relative late comer to literacy, science, and martial disciplines, compared to its Asian neighbors, or for that matter Europe.
But people love Samurai (not to mention ninja) revisionist histories, just like they love Dracula stories, bullshit stories of knightly chivalry, and comic books.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
So is Judo Japanese?
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
So is Judo Japanese?
Let's ask Kano, here is what he said, "Judo should be free as art and science from any external influences, political, national, racial, and financial or any other organized interest. And all things connected with it should be directed to its ultimate object, the 'Benefit of Humanity'".
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
My point: yes, but only if the blend with collegiate wrestling is happening.
So e.g. Andre Galvao is an American Jiu-Jitsu practicioner?
I think Legion guys who broke off actually sometimes call themselves AJJ.
I think Legion guys who broke off actually sometimes call themselves AJJ.
RGBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
So e.g. Andre Galvao is an American Jiu-Jitsu practicioner? I think Legion guys who broke off actually sometimes call themselves AJJ.
yeah when you drive by Legion there is a sign that says American Jiu Jitsu...
RRBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I think that Joe hit it on the head when he said that it's Americans thinking that they're EXTRA patriotic by calling it American BJJ (I'm sure they put on Camo Gi's and Punisher Rash Guards too while they roll).
Look, basketball is still basketball even though Dr Naismith's original rules of the game have changed, and boxing is boxing even though it's no longer bare knuckle and that old timey stance, and has advanced to the Philly Shell and whatever Loma does to make people look just new out there.... At the end of the day, put on the damn gi's and train and call it what it has been called since our coaches were all blue belts, and not what some white belt who just learned leg locks from a Gordan Ryan DVD, or American black belt who feels salty that he was overlooked by his Brazilian teammates thinks it should be called.
Look, basketball is still basketball even though Dr Naismith's original rules of the game have changed, and boxing is boxing even though it's no longer bare knuckle and that old timey stance, and has advanced to the Philly Shell and whatever Loma does to make people look just new out there.... At the end of the day, put on the damn gi's and train and call it what it has been called since our coaches were all blue belts, and not what some white belt who just learned leg locks from a Gordan Ryan DVD, or American black belt who feels salty that he was overlooked by his Brazilian teammates thinks it should be called.
DBlack beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Let's ask Kano, here is what he said, 'Judo should be free as art and science from any external influences, political, national, racial, and financial or any other organized interest. And all things connected with it should be directed to its ultimate object, the 'Benefit of Humanity''.
Brevity is the soul of wit. Are you perchance a lawyer or a politician? Anyway, this is pointless.
