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Did Old school still exist ?
4 year(s) ago • 10472 views • 29 replies
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
Hi guys, girls and monkeys,
In BJJ there were all the time people who bring new things on the table, like Roleta with open guard, DelaRiva with his guard and special hook,..... innovation is a huge part of BJJ, on each era, in the opposite side, there was people who cleam to be against those innovations and representing the old school style of jiujitsu. I do think that this battle between both was at the top when all the berimbolo, 50/50, both guard pulling game start to be mainstream, with a lot of new white belts, who had Mendes bros poster in their sleeping room and spend much time on trying those new moves than train on more boring basics. I'm pretty sure that a lot of instructors know what i'm talking about ;-)
So my question is, did 100% old school people still exist or like the dinausores did they disappear ? How do you consider your game with that point of view ?
Hi guys, girls and monkeys,
In BJJ there were all the time people who bring new things on the table, like Roleta with open guard, DelaRiva with his guard and special hook,..... innovation is a huge part of BJJ, on each era, in the opposite side, there was people who cleam to be against those innovations and representing the old school style of jiujitsu. I do think that this battle between both was at the top when all the berimbolo, 50/50, both guard pulling game start to be mainstream, with a lot of new white belts, who had Mendes bros poster in their sleeping room and spend much time on trying those new moves than train on more boring basics. I'm pretty sure that a lot of instructors know what i'm talking about ;-)
So my question is, did 100% old school people still exist or like the dinausores did they disappear ? How do you consider your game with that point of view ?
VBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
MBrown beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
Hi guys, girls and monkeys, In BJJ there were all the time people who bring new things on the table, like Roleta with open guard, DelaRiva with his guard and special hook,..... innovation is a huge part of BJJ, on each era, in the opposite side, there was people who cleam to be against those innovations and representing the old school style of jiujitsu. I do think that this battle between both was at the top when all the berimbolo, 50/50, both guard pulling game start to be mainstream, with a lot of new white belts, who had Mendes bros poster in their sleeping room and spend much time on trying those new moves than train on more boring basics. I'm pretty sure that a lot of instructors know what i'm talking about ;-) So my question is, did 100% old school people still exist or like the dinausores did they disappear ? How do you consider your game with that point of view ?
Mhhh, I think it is a thing about priorities and approaches.
I think training basics over and over isn’t boring at all.
I think training basics over and over isn’t boring at all.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I am a striker who also grapples and have always considered myself as old school as you are going to find but much like anything else I have to adjust and adapt to new things or go extinct.
We were talking about this in class the other night. A good example is coming from Lethwei we have a lot of hardcore body conditioning and I believe in hard sparring but have had to adjust to more modern understanding of how Trauma affects the brain. After years of fighting and crazy sparring I have CTE but I don't want that for my students.
With weight cutting I was a plastic bag in the sauna guy until I read the scientific differences between that and reverse osmosis cutting in the re hydration process..
With grappling I am a simple basics guy including my leglocks but I also study the new school developments to see if it fits my game but also to see how to deal with it. I believe those that insist of ignoring the things around them are doomed to get left in the past
We were talking about this in class the other night. A good example is coming from Lethwei we have a lot of hardcore body conditioning and I believe in hard sparring but have had to adjust to more modern understanding of how Trauma affects the brain. After years of fighting and crazy sparring I have CTE but I don't want that for my students.
With weight cutting I was a plastic bag in the sauna guy until I read the scientific differences between that and reverse osmosis cutting in the re hydration process..
With grappling I am a simple basics guy including my leglocks but I also study the new school developments to see if it fits my game but also to see how to deal with it. I believe those that insist of ignoring the things around them are doomed to get left in the past
NTBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I’m no expert but my focus for training is always centered around preparation for self defense. I recognize the limitations of grappling in certain scenarios so try to work within the scope I feel grappling is most useful. Eg I don’t think my buggy choke is going to help if I had to fight three guys.
That being said, the new stuff is really fun to work on and as Phillip mentioned, I also study it to see if any of it fits into my game or at least to reduce my chances of getting caught.
I used to retro fit my gi game into my no gi game, but as both continue to evolve I realized my previous approach wasn’t going to cut it so I’m working on filling holes in my game now.
That being said, the new stuff is really fun to work on and as Phillip mentioned, I also study it to see if any of it fits into my game or at least to reduce my chances of getting caught.
I used to retro fit my gi game into my no gi game, but as both continue to evolve I realized my previous approach wasn’t going to cut it so I’m working on filling holes in my game now.
MBrown beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
’m no expert but my focus for training is always centered around preparation for self defense….
Same here…
In sparring I try to get a takedown and to play heavy top game….
I suck at berimbolo and foot lock games for example, because I simply don’t train it enough. I know that, but that’s ok for me.
My focus within my limited training time is more on basics, clinch, punch protection, etc….
In sparring I try to get a takedown and to play heavy top game….
I suck at berimbolo and foot lock games for example, because I simply don’t train it enough. I know that, but that’s ok for me.
My focus within my limited training time is more on basics, clinch, punch protection, etc….
GFBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
"did 100% old school people still exist or like the dinausores did they disappear ? How do you consider your game with that point of view ?"
1) I think they still exist.
Perhaps Roger Gracie is frequent example of the "basics" refined to the highest levels, not too many "fancy spinning shit" (actual name of Keenan Lapel Technique by the way, chapter 4-9 ^^). Always taping his opponents with the same few moves.
2) my game is a mix I guess, and I like exploring the fancier rolling things a la crab ride, rolling back-takes, etc. to understand how they work. I'm also very happy that there's a guy at our gym that delved deeply into the buggy choke, as it helped us understand how to try to avoid it and not be complacent in top side control.
where in Belgium are you Benoit? I'll be visiting next month!
Perhaps Roger Gracie is frequent example of the "basics" refined to the highest levels, not too many "fancy spinning shit" (actual name of Keenan Lapel Technique by the way, chapter 4-9 ^^). Always taping his opponents with the same few moves.
2) my game is a mix I guess, and I like exploring the fancier rolling things a la crab ride, rolling back-takes, etc. to understand how they work. I'm also very happy that there's a guy at our gym that delved deeply into the buggy choke, as it helped us understand how to try to avoid it and not be complacent in top side control.
where in Belgium are you Benoit? I'll be visiting next month!
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
1) I think they still exist. Perhaps Roger Gracie is frequent example of the 'basics' refined to the highest levels, not too many 'fancy spinning shit' (actual name of Keenan Lapel Technique by the way, chapter 4-9 ^^). Always taping his opponents with the same few moves. 2) my game is a mix I guess, and I like exploring the fancier rolling things a la crab ride, rolling back-takes, etc. to understand how they work. I'm also very happy that there's a guy at our gym that delved deeply into the buggy choke, as it helped us understand how to try to avoid it and not be complacent in top side control. where in Belgium are you Benoit? I'll be visiting next month!
I'm around Brussels, we need to fix something it can be really nice to meet you, you train in Japan under japannese Black belt and i'm a long time fan of Japan Way of BJJ. We keep in touch, by message.
About the post, thanks everyone to respond.
From my point of view, there will allways be People to train old school, because of the 250 Gracie's into BJJ ;-) i'm joking but, i think that they watts to save their legacy, so they keep it traditional in majority with some little change.
In the old school game, we have also the older masters like GM Flavio Behring who still teach a lot the self defense part of BJJ.
In my Jiujitsu, i try to take the best of every styles, don't put limits, learn from everyone you train with. If i had to tell fighters fighters who influence me the most i would says Marcelo Garcia and Leo Viera, both super solid basics but with personal style, high technical level with creativity and some crazyness.
As a teacher, what's make me more proud is to see fifteen people on the mat with differend styles, because we all have differend body types and personalities, so i do my best to give all material, than people made their own path.
About the post, thanks everyone to respond.
From my point of view, there will allways be People to train old school, because of the 250 Gracie's into BJJ ;-) i'm joking but, i think that they watts to save their legacy, so they keep it traditional in majority with some little change.
In the old school game, we have also the older masters like GM Flavio Behring who still teach a lot the self defense part of BJJ.
In my Jiujitsu, i try to take the best of every styles, don't put limits, learn from everyone you train with. If i had to tell fighters fighters who influence me the most i would says Marcelo Garcia and Leo Viera, both super solid basics but with personal style, high technical level with creativity and some crazyness.
As a teacher, what's make me more proud is to see fifteen people on the mat with differend styles, because we all have differend body types and personalities, so i do my best to give all material, than people made their own path.
Edited 4 year(s) ago
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
As far as I know and have seen, "ANY Self-defence BJJ" is just some"Traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu" techniqes learned in the way of TMA teaching method = a suboptimal way to teach/learn any physical skill.
I've seen a clip of Roger Gracie, one of the greatest BJJ athletes ever, teach some silly standing headlock defence at a seminar in exactly the same way that any random Aikido, Ju-Jutsu, "self defence Judo", Ninjutsu, Kempo teacher would...
Am I wrong here? Is there actually more to "self defence" part of BJJ or GJJ?
In regards "old school" vs "new school" my assumption is that any modern day "new school" BJJ athlete e.g. Lachlan, Musumeci, Gordon would be able to dominate ANY BJJ athlete from the 90s EVEN if they would have specific "technique restrictions" e.g. straight footlock only, no spinning sweeps/backtakes etc.
Professionalism drives development.
I've seen a clip of Roger Gracie, one of the greatest BJJ athletes ever, teach some silly standing headlock defence at a seminar in exactly the same way that any random Aikido, Ju-Jutsu, "self defence Judo", Ninjutsu, Kempo teacher would...
Am I wrong here? Is there actually more to "self defence" part of BJJ or GJJ?
In regards "old school" vs "new school" my assumption is that any modern day "new school" BJJ athlete e.g. Lachlan, Musumeci, Gordon would be able to dominate ANY BJJ athlete from the 90s EVEN if they would have specific "technique restrictions" e.g. straight footlock only, no spinning sweeps/backtakes etc.
Professionalism drives development.
OHBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
i would say, some things depend on you goals or vision ... but
maybe because i come from striking and MMA, i always saw my grappling in a "what if the guy can strike me" way, (what can be qualified as old school) that's a little bit silly as i do not compete MMA anymore.... but it last in my brain.
note that i trained to defend and understand "new flashy" moves and also to teach it to my students who want to compete in bjj, because it became a part of it.
so i'll say that staying stuck in the "old school" may be important to keep your grappling "strike proof" but won't allow you to keep the lvl with "new school" guy in bjj contest...
maybe because i come from striking and MMA, i always saw my grappling in a "what if the guy can strike me" way, (what can be qualified as old school) that's a little bit silly as i do not compete MMA anymore.... but it last in my brain.
note that i trained to defend and understand "new flashy" moves and also to teach it to my students who want to compete in bjj, because it became a part of it.
so i'll say that staying stuck in the "old school" may be important to keep your grappling "strike proof" but won't allow you to keep the lvl with "new school" guy in bjj contest...
Edited 4 year(s) ago
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
As far as I know and have seen, 'ANY Self-defence BJJ' is just some'Traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu' techniqes learned in the way of TMA teaching method = a suboptimal way to teach/learn any physical skill. I've seen a clip of Roger Gracie, one of the greatest BJJ athletes ever, teach some silly standing headlock defence at a seminar in exactly the same way that any random Aikido, Ju-Jutsu, 'self defence Judo', Ninjutsu, Kempo teacher would... Am I wrong here? Is there actually more to 'self defence' part of BJJ or GJJ? In regards 'old school' vs 'new school' my assumption is that any modern day 'new school' BJJ athlete e.g. Lachlan, Musumeci, Gordon would be able to dominate ANY BJJ athlete from the 90s EVEN if they would have specific 'technique restrictions' e.g. straight footlock only, no spinning sweeps/backtakes etc. Professionalism drives development.
You're right about the self defense part i think because this was the unchanged part since the beginning so if it was close from the source, those fundamentals should be the same as aikijutsu, aikido, hapkido,... but it also include ground fighting defense against strikes.
About the fact that, 90s fighters would be dominated by new generation guys, i have no doubt that it gonna be rough for the old guard... specially because the signatures moves from the best guys of that era becomes a part of the basics now, every blue belt know about a DelaRiva hook, open guard, spider guard,...but i'm pretty sure that some of the best fighters in history can be victorious even in now because of their phenomenal capacities, also because jiujitsu is about adaptation, i'm sure they would be able to find a solution....For me the new kids coming up should wake up early to beat a Ronaldo Jacaré, a Terere, Marcelinho or Leozinho in their prime....but it's just fantasy like what they do in "Rocky Balboa" ;)
About the fact that, 90s fighters would be dominated by new generation guys, i have no doubt that it gonna be rough for the old guard... specially because the signatures moves from the best guys of that era becomes a part of the basics now, every blue belt know about a DelaRiva hook, open guard, spider guard,...but i'm pretty sure that some of the best fighters in history can be victorious even in now because of their phenomenal capacities, also because jiujitsu is about adaptation, i'm sure they would be able to find a solution....For me the new kids coming up should wake up early to beat a Ronaldo Jacaré, a Terere, Marcelinho or Leozinho in their prime....but it's just fantasy like what they do in "Rocky Balboa" ;)
VBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
My thoughts in old school new school debate is: am I defending myself well? For example: If a really have to defend myself for real will this bjj technique get me punched in the face? In my jiu-jitsu journey I always built my jiu-jitsu game with that thought in mind... people need to understand the difference between the sport of bjj and the practical application on bjj for self-defense. if that makes me old school then I'm old school. And I will gladly carry that old school shield.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
will this bjj technique get me punched in the face
So you too rather neglect closed guard?
MBrown beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
So you too rather neglect closed guard?
In my opinion closed guard is a great guard if it is raining knuckles from top. Punch protection, survival and control, standing or on the ground, is self defense, too, and I would argue you can train it pretty alive. For some maybe this is the definition of „old school“ or vale tudo. Haven’t seen that kind of training in Japanese Jiu Jitsu back then though.
I would never say a more sports/ competition oriented approach wouldn’t be good Jiu Jitsu or classic „Gracie Jiu Jitsu“ would be the best, but for example for my profession being a prison officer, punch protection standing and on the ground, clinch control, „the art of control“ in general, is something more target audience oriented than learning inverted, double sleeve whatever guard…. Maybe I learn that later and for sure it is great fun to play, but with limited training time I have to set priorities … as Chad Lyman always says:“ train a little a lot“.
I would never say a more sports/ competition oriented approach wouldn’t be good Jiu Jitsu or classic „Gracie Jiu Jitsu“ would be the best, but for example for my profession being a prison officer, punch protection standing and on the ground, clinch control, „the art of control“ in general, is something more target audience oriented than learning inverted, double sleeve whatever guard…. Maybe I learn that later and for sure it is great fun to play, but with limited training time I have to set priorities … as Chad Lyman always says:“ train a little a lot“.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
i was first thinking about Old school against New school, in competition or rolling. But the discussion about using BJJ for self defense or as a professional is also pretty interesting....
BJJ will help in real stituation for a few reason:
- It give you the possibility to end the fight without hurting your opponent
- It give you a chance if your opponent is heavier or stronger than you
- The fact that we fight every class gives us confidence and good shape in general ( Those aspects are important because, in general aggressors chose to attack lamb not lions)
BJJ will help in real stituation for a few reason:
- It give you the possibility to end the fight without hurting your opponent
- It give you a chance if your opponent is heavier or stronger than you
- The fact that we fight every class gives us confidence and good shape in general ( Those aspects are important because, in general aggressors chose to attack lamb not lions)
Edited 4 year(s) ago
VBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
So you too rather neglect closed guard?
No not at all, closed guard can be effective if used correctly. For example: overhooking one arm controlling the head and positioning the body is critical to not get punched in the face. My objective is to make someone extremely uncomfortable to try and posture, that's when i use basic sweep techniques. I also use closed guard to transition to feet on hips. I concentrate on these things when rolling. Self-defense is always on the forefront of my mind.
DBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
The issue is not between old or new school.
The issue is about technique that's applicable against a fully resisting opponent, even when there's a weight/size/strength discrepancy (solid, simple, good), and technique that isn't (fancy, poser, shit).
The issue is about technique that's applicable against a fully resisting opponent, even when there's a weight/size/strength discrepancy (solid, simple, good), and technique that isn't (fancy, poser, shit).
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
...and technique that isn't (fancy, poser, shit).
There are techniques which are more appropriate/efficient in competition that perhaps you feel should fall into this category. I would argue that it's not that big of a deal to explore and train this side of bjj as well... assuming you first have a solid ability to avoid getting hit in the face, of course...
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I recommend Ryan Halls recent stuff - all he teaches is designed to work in context of strikes EVEN when it's 50/50 or Deep Half.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Giancarlo Bodoni has some recent good stuff on his YouTube on nogi closed guard - how to make old-school great again :)
It is the best time for BJJ... Information is plenty!
It is the best time for BJJ... Information is plenty!
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
It seems as if I'm not alone in defining old school as BJJ which is self defense/NHB/MMA aware (even if you've never been competing in it yourself), including favoring techniques that aren't as reliant on being warmed up, flexible, of equal size and strength etc. as well as techniques that you have a good chance of executing also on your worst day, in a gritty fog-of-war scenario where you might not be able to fully assess the situation or use any fine motor skills because of stress and other constraints.
In the mid 90:s, when I learned my first set of CBJJ rules (pre IBJJF), it was explained to me that the whole idea of the point system was to as far as possible reward positions and actions that would had given you advantages (dealing damage etc) in a NHB situation. Since then, that philosophy has really been abandoned and I actually think it's sad to see how it's now more about exploiting those very rules to your advantage, no matter the application (or lack thereof) outside of BJJ competition. Being winy about that, I actually think is very old school :-)
In the mid 90:s, when I learned my first set of CBJJ rules (pre IBJJF), it was explained to me that the whole idea of the point system was to as far as possible reward positions and actions that would had given you advantages (dealing damage etc) in a NHB situation. Since then, that philosophy has really been abandoned and I actually think it's sad to see how it's now more about exploiting those very rules to your advantage, no matter the application (or lack thereof) outside of BJJ competition. Being winy about that, I actually think is very old school :-)
MBrown beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Giancarlo Bodoni has some recent good stuff on his YouTube on nogi closed guard - how to make old-school great again :) It is the best time for BJJ... Information is plenty!
Jorgen, are you referring to the Video with Brian Glick about clamp guard (which my Coach calls vale tudo guard) from closed guard?
RBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
A lot of the “new” submissions I’m seeing being taught at gyms and online are nothing more than old school Catch Wrestling submissions.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
A lot of the “new” submissions I’m seeing being taught at gyms and online are nothing more than old school Catch Wrestling submissions.
BJJ is champion to stole techniques from other fighting arts. All the heel hook, arm triangle, guillotine,... why didn't mention where you pick your new move ? After that, there is always someone to say that ADCC champions were all jiujitsu guys...
ALBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think the argument is not Old School or Modern. How would you even define what is old school or not? It’s rather about is your jiu-jitsu « universal », e.i. Applicable in a variety of contexts (gi, no-gi, self defense, mma, etc.) and is it fundamentally sound? Does it adhere to solid principles like base, posture, structure and connection? That’s the lens through which I view techniques to see if I adopt them or not.
"Applicable in a variety of contexts (gi, no-gi, self defense, mma, etc.) and is it fundamentally sound" is EXACTLY what my definition of "Old School" is...
"Modern Sport" BJJ, by comparison, is all that fancy athletic stuff that often only works well when there is no striking, same sex, and within a weightclass.
The so called evolution of BJJ mainly occurred within the sport of BJJ alone, as far as I'm concerned, and is what keeps young athletes coming in the door. I would dare to say that "Old School" is what most of us (at least those of us old enough to remember the early days of Vale Tudo/NHB/MMA) came into the art of Jiu-Jitsu for, and why we are still here.
"Modern Sport" BJJ, by comparison, is all that fancy athletic stuff that often only works well when there is no striking, same sex, and within a weightclass.
The so called evolution of BJJ mainly occurred within the sport of BJJ alone, as far as I'm concerned, and is what keeps young athletes coming in the door. I would dare to say that "Old School" is what most of us (at least those of us old enough to remember the early days of Vale Tudo/NHB/MMA) came into the art of Jiu-Jitsu for, and why we are still here.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
ALBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
The issue is not between old or new school. The issue is about technique that's applicable against a fully resisting opponent, even when there's a weight/size/strength discrepancy (solid, simple, good), and technique that isn't (fancy, poser, shit).
Again - what you just said is the essence of Old School Jiu-Jitsu, at least to me, as opposed to the modern weight class based grappling game that is often full of "fancy shit" LOL
RKBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
https://youtu.be/srSFmrb2[...]60BAdQeuUD
Old school vs. new school. However Melqui Galvão‘s student are heavy on fundamentals. From what I observe and experience , the top competitors all have good fundamentals and are very athletic. While the local level competitors are more athletic and rely less on fundamentals.
Baby Shark really should be called Killer Shark.
Old school vs. new school. However Melqui Galvão‘s student are heavy on fundamentals. From what I observe and experience , the top competitors all have good fundamentals and are very athletic. While the local level competitors are more athletic and rely less on fundamentals.
Baby Shark really should be called Killer Shark.
SEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I think it still exists and will ever happen.
There is no JJ without fundamentals.
From my pov Rogers (competition-) game is „oldschool“.
And I would say my own game is „oldschool“, too.
It is cool to try out all that fancy stuff. And it is fun.
But when it is going more serious I slow down and do nothing than simple and fundamental moves.
That is the stuff I trust in.
And it works.
1000+ times approved.
Solid like a rock.💁🏻♂️
There is no JJ without fundamentals.
From my pov Rogers (competition-) game is „oldschool“.
And I would say my own game is „oldschool“, too.
It is cool to try out all that fancy stuff. And it is fun.
But when it is going more serious I slow down and do nothing than simple and fundamental moves.
That is the stuff I trust in.
And it works.
1000+ times approved.
Solid like a rock.💁🏻♂️
Edited 2 year(s) ago
DWBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Old school jiujitsu still wins at tournament level too. I was watching a couple of matches recently and friend won by the old bread cutter, also saw another with basic arm bar. I love the Roger Gracie example that was noted above in some of the comments. Roger is very old school but always fascinating to hear his take on the intricate details of the basics he uses. Refining the fundamentals is what keeps those movements new and exciting. I love the new school and progressive side to jiujitsu as well. Some of the new talents revitalize techniques that seem new school but have been around for years. Case in point, Octopus Guard is making a come back with guys like Craig at B-Team, however guys like Eduardo (Turtle Master) we’re perfecting it years ago. The techniques come and go and solid fundamental jiujitsu lives on. OSS!
LSBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
Old school vs new school is about more than just adapting bjj to strikes. Because even in the context of strikes we have made advances.
I look at Damian Maia. He favors half guards which allow him to stand/wrestle up. And he passes in tripod.
In my opinion the real old school bjj is that which even today is taught very much like how it was taught by Helio. And i know of a bunch of schools that still teach that way.
I recently learned from a podcast by Drysdale that this difference dates back all the way to Helio and Carlson.
I look at Damian Maia. He favors half guards which allow him to stand/wrestle up. And he passes in tripod.
In my opinion the real old school bjj is that which even today is taught very much like how it was taught by Helio. And i know of a bunch of schools that still teach that way.
I recently learned from a podcast by Drysdale that this difference dates back all the way to Helio and Carlson.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
