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Importance of Certificates?
3 year(s) ago • 3293 views • 70 replies
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Since getting verified, I have been doing my best to scrutinize and vote on other members' profiles. Every martial art that I have ever trained in has always provided rank certificates with each promotion. However, I'm noticing that a lot of people on this site don't post certificates as evidence of their rank (though they typically provide excellent documentation in terms of photos, videos, social media posts, etc., so I can still feel confident voting "Yes" even without a certificate). So now I'm wondering, how common is it for BJJ schools to award certificates? Does your school award them for all ranks, for only some ranks (like black belt), or not at all?
Also, have you ever seen anyone fake a certificate on Beltchecker? I remember a few years ago on Bullshido where a guy Photoshopped his name onto Neil Ohlenkamp's Kodokan Judo rank certificate and was immediately busted (and then banned by USA Judo).
(Forgive me if this topic has appeared before. The search function seems to only search for people, so I dug back though past posts manually and didn't find anything.)
Also, have you ever seen anyone fake a certificate on Beltchecker? I remember a few years ago on Bullshido where a guy Photoshopped his name onto Neil Ohlenkamp's Kodokan Judo rank certificate and was immediately busted (and then banned by USA Judo).
(Forgive me if this topic has appeared before. The search function seems to only search for people, so I dug back though past posts manually and didn't find anything.)
BBPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
The only certificate i've seen is when my coach got his black belt. I know I didn't receive one when I was promoted to blue.
JWBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I give certificates to each student who promotes to a new belt. I don't do certificates for stripes. My instructor never gave certificates. I've seen it done both ways honestly.
MPBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Origin Darlington don't use certificates, but we do photograph belt promotions. I guess its down to the gym/instructor/organisation.
At least with photos its very hard to fake whereas with a certificate yes you can.
The question would be why, because as soon as you start rolling at another gym or with a visitor to your gym you will be found out.
Also if your lineage is good and proven then that speaks volumes too.
At least with photos its very hard to fake whereas with a certificate yes you can.
The question would be why, because as soon as you start rolling at another gym or with a visitor to your gym you will be found out.
Also if your lineage is good and proven then that speaks volumes too.
JJBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
No reason to give a certificate for anything less than a black belt.
Who cares if your a blue or purple belt.
I think "self defense" academies are more into certificates.
It's normally those karate taekwondo type people that need constant reassurance.
Who cares if your a blue or purple belt.
I think "self defense" academies are more into certificates.
It's normally those karate taekwondo type people that need constant reassurance.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
No reason to give a certificate for anything less than a black belt. Who cares if your a blue or purple belt. I think 'self defense' academies are more into certificates. It's normally those karate taekwondo type people that need constant reassurance.
I take your point, but I actually like colored belt certificates. It takes a while to go up a rank in BJJ, so a purple belt for us represents the same amount of time, effort, and skill as a first-degree black belt in an art like judo. As long as we don't start adding more colors to the belt system or handing out rank based on attendance, I don't think we'll get too much like the McDojos.
When I was a purple belt, I actually had a fake purple belt show up at my school. He was a legit blue belt through the Gracie Academy (I looked him up), but when I asked him about his purple belt, he hemmed and hawed... and eventually told us that he had promoted himself to purple because he had started his own school! I told him to take off the fake purple belt and wear his blue belt. He refused. There was some "vigorous sparring" that followed. We didn't see him again for some reason. :)
When I was a purple belt, I actually had a fake purple belt show up at my school. He was a legit blue belt through the Gracie Academy (I looked him up), but when I asked him about his purple belt, he hemmed and hawed... and eventually told us that he had promoted himself to purple because he had started his own school! I told him to take off the fake purple belt and wear his blue belt. He refused. There was some "vigorous sparring" that followed. We didn't see him again for some reason. :)
BWBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
We give certificates for all belts. People generally like certificates as part of the grading process.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Since getting verified, I have been doing my best to scrutinize and vote on other members' profiles. Every martial art that I have ever trained in has always provided rank certificates with each promotion. However, I'm noticing that a lot of people on this site don't post certificates as evidence of their rank (though they typically provide excellent documentation in terms of photos, videos, social media posts, etc., so I can still feel confident voting 'Yes' even without a certificate). So now I'm wondering, how common is it for BJJ schools to award certificates? Does your school award them for all ranks, for only some ranks (like black belt), or not at all? Also, have you ever seen anyone fake a certificate on Beltchecker? I remember a few years ago on Bullshido where a guy Photoshopped his name onto Neil Ohlenkamp's Kodokan Judo rank certificate and was immediately busted (and then banned by USA Judo). (Forgive me if this topic has appeared before. The search function seems to only search for people, so I dug back though past posts manually and didn't find anything.)
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
If I ever have my own students, I would at the very least invest in some nice certificates. With thousands of hours and dollars on their part, I think promotions should be more than just being handed a new belt.
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Have you ever heard of the Legend of Rocco Nikil? https://www.beltchecker.c[...]amp;page=1
Priceless! Remind me to take Rocco Nikil out of my lineage on my profile. ;)
GJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The only certificate I received was for my black belt…..
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
SZBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The gym I attended from white through brown belt only gave certificates for kid promotions. Unfortunately, I did not receive one for my Black Belt either.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Never received one, never given one. Don't really see the point of it
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I used to give printed Belt certificates (or striped on request). Nowadays it's a PDF that they can print and frame themselves since the implementation of the touchless this and that. It's part of the 'service' element for my clients. I don't touch their certs :)
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I got a certificate for my purple belt... maybe brown too? Oh shit, maybe I should double check my profile first... nah, too lazy... whatever.
I've promoted dozens of people at this point in time and never given certificates, but if anybody asks for them then it's no problem, we can just bust one out.
I've occasionally been asked for proof of rank, but if I just give people a link to my beltchecker profile, they've never not been ok with it. This site is so superior to any 20th century technology you could imagine.
I've promoted dozens of people at this point in time and never given certificates, but if anybody asks for them then it's no problem, we can just bust one out.
I've occasionally been asked for proof of rank, but if I just give people a link to my beltchecker profile, they've never not been ok with it. This site is so superior to any 20th century technology you could imagine.
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I've occasionally been asked for proof of rank, but if I just give people a link to my beltchecker profile, they've never not been ok with it. This site is so superior to any 20th century technology you could imagine.
You need that Beltchecker ID card.
MPBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
It does seem that certificates are becoming a thing of the past, with cameras and social media a picture can paint a thousand words as they say.
Some amazing belt promotion pictures on Beltchecker
Some amazing belt promotion pictures on Beltchecker
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
It does seem that certificates are becoming a thing of the past, with cameras and social media a picture can paint a thousand words as they say. Some amazing belt promotion pictures on Beltchecker
Good point. I think I'd be more leery of someone who had a certificate, but no photos/video or social media screen shots of the promotion.
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
It's funny. Prior to Jigoro Kano's invention of the gi and kyu/dan belt rank system around the turn of the 20th century, jūjutsu used the menkyo rank system. Samurai trained in street clothes (a kimono and hakama) and were presented with scrolls that certified their ability level and teaching privileges. Obviously, nobody was making daguerreotypes of rank promotions back then, so photo evidence wasn't important. :) With advances in technology, it seems we've moved away from certificates in favor of photo/video documentation.
TSBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The only certificate I ever received was the one I actually took the initiative to apply for through the ibjjf after I was awarded my black belt. My instructor signed off on the paperwork. I also had to initiate the process of getting my academy certified so I could get my certificate. My instructor didn't really care about that either... At the time he did display his black belt certificates at the academy, but the story I heard was that he only got those so that he could get a work visa in the US...
Cassio, my instructor, doesn't do stripes (for adults, I do stripes for the kids) and doesn't do certificates. Never has.
Cassio, my instructor, doesn't do stripes (for adults, I do stripes for the kids) and doesn't do certificates. Never has.
MPBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The only certificate I ever received was the one I actually took the initiative to apply for through the ibjjf after I was awarded my black belt. My instructor signed off on the paperwork. I also had to initiate the process of getting my academy certified so I could get my certificate. My instructor didn't really care about that either... At the time he did display his black belt certificates at the academy, but the story I heard was that he only got those so that he could get a work visa in the US... Cassio, my instructor, doesn't do stripes (for adults, I do stripes for the kids) and doesn't do certificates. Never has.
It does seem to be the norm now I'm afraid however I have just ordered the Beltchecker Certificate and Card to go with all my video and photo footage, so at least I have something to hang on the wall hahaha.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
BBPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Dude I got all the beltchecker gear. Haha.
I'll have a cert eventually. Ordered one earlier this month after my account randomly got unapproved because of my profile picture. Figured if there was anything else wrong lurking waiting to be found they'll find it when they manually vet me.
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Since I run a college club, the certificate is actually somewhat important for me. In academics, we LOVE a good paper trail (e.g., official transcripts, diplomas, recommendation letters, background checks, etc.). When I started my club back in 2006, I had to prove that I was a certified instructor before the college would insure me (and thankfully, I had certificates for my BJJ purple belt and my JKD instructor certification). I'm glad they didn't demand transcripts! :)
PZBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I don't like the idea of certificates. Never was given one from white to black belt. Linage is what separates bjj from other martial arts and that's our strength. The fact that some one is willing to connect their name and reputation to their student is more important to me than the piece of paper with the stamp of the person-less organisation. Of course every instructor is gonna have different standards and criteria but it's ok. If the person they have promoted isn't good enough it's gonna have a negative influence on the instructor's and academy's name and their honor and/or the business. It's also easy to verify the skills and knowledge on the mat. Again every one's gonna have a different opinion on what should be a black belt able to do and know but this variety makes our art diverse and rich. A piece of paper is only important for the people from outside of the jiu jitsu and I don't really care if they believe I am a black belt or not.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Certificates are nice at promotions and degree upgrades on the Black Belts, IMO. It's just a nice thing to have. We do them at my gym and I have received one from my coaches for each promotion throughout the years.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The belt checking experience has been interesting in seeing how I myself value different evidence when verifying. As already demonstrated, certificates are easy to falsify and could be complex to check even in person, through analysis of the authenticity of the signature etc. Would then also be much easier to verify by just rolling with the owner of the certificate.
So I'd say certificates have very limited value here, unless backed up by other evidence. If you clearly have a well established and long going affiliation with an instructor, it would be very unlikely that you faked a certificate for your last promotion. If the instructor hear about it, they can also dispute it on Beltchecker.
Lineage is very important to me, because is it really BJJ without one? You can still be a very good gi grappler though.
When verifying, I like to verify all the way up to someone I know of or I can easily find the credentials of on trusted BJJ sites. I've found some long lineage chains very difficult to verify, as it takes a lot of work and time. So it is about time for something like BeltChecker to help documenting lineages "for all future" (and for the sake of everyone who will be part of the lineage further down the line).
Except for having met and rolled with someone in person, or knowing someone who has, a link to a video of the promotion is strongest for me. Followed by a picture of the promoting coach putting on the belt or applying the clearly visible stripes on a BB.
Well, support from the promoting instructor is at least as strong, when I think about it. Either through BeltChecker, social media or an academy or organization homepage.
IBJJF verification through their homepages Black belt searcher is ok, but takes a little more effort and has erased the lineage, date of promotion etc. Also, its impossible to know if its just someone who shares the same name. Medals in IBJJF competitions at a certain belt level could be evidence, but also takes more time than it should to verify.
All in all, it is the profile owners responsibility to provide sufficient evidence and I've noticed quite a few people (at least initially) taking offence as if they felt entitled to other users spending their time verifying their profile without them having put in the work to make it verifiable. I'm starting to see the dispute as a flag for others verifyers to spend their time checking on the profile of others, who have made a real effort to dig up evidence. Wouldn't downvote someone with only certificate pictures though. But in most cases wouldn't upvote them either.
So I'd say certificates have very limited value here, unless backed up by other evidence. If you clearly have a well established and long going affiliation with an instructor, it would be very unlikely that you faked a certificate for your last promotion. If the instructor hear about it, they can also dispute it on Beltchecker.
Lineage is very important to me, because is it really BJJ without one? You can still be a very good gi grappler though.
When verifying, I like to verify all the way up to someone I know of or I can easily find the credentials of on trusted BJJ sites. I've found some long lineage chains very difficult to verify, as it takes a lot of work and time. So it is about time for something like BeltChecker to help documenting lineages "for all future" (and for the sake of everyone who will be part of the lineage further down the line).
Except for having met and rolled with someone in person, or knowing someone who has, a link to a video of the promotion is strongest for me. Followed by a picture of the promoting coach putting on the belt or applying the clearly visible stripes on a BB.
Well, support from the promoting instructor is at least as strong, when I think about it. Either through BeltChecker, social media or an academy or organization homepage.
IBJJF verification through their homepages Black belt searcher is ok, but takes a little more effort and has erased the lineage, date of promotion etc. Also, its impossible to know if its just someone who shares the same name. Medals in IBJJF competitions at a certain belt level could be evidence, but also takes more time than it should to verify.
All in all, it is the profile owners responsibility to provide sufficient evidence and I've noticed quite a few people (at least initially) taking offence as if they felt entitled to other users spending their time verifying their profile without them having put in the work to make it verifiable. I'm starting to see the dispute as a flag for others verifyers to spend their time checking on the profile of others, who have made a real effort to dig up evidence. Wouldn't downvote someone with only certificate pictures though. But in most cases wouldn't upvote them either.
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SJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Rarely seen it. I got a certificate for blue belt at the Roger Gracie Academy back in 2008 (eventually), but I don't know if they still do them. My other belts all came from my instructor Kev (sometimes with Roger), who runs an RGA affiliate.
I don't have a problem with them, but it's not something I'd do at my school for adults. Maybe for kids. I dislike emphasising belts, people get too hung up on promotions, IMO.
I don't have a problem with them, but it's not something I'd do at my school for adults. Maybe for kids. I dislike emphasising belts, people get too hung up on promotions, IMO.
MPBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Rarely seen it. I got a certificate for blue belt at the Roger Gracie Academy back in 2008 (eventually), but I don't know if they still do them. My other belts all came from my instructor Kev (sometimes with Roger), who runs an RGA affiliate. I don't have a problem with them, but it's not something I'd do at my school for adults. Maybe for kids. I dislike emphasising belts, people get too hung up on promotions, IMO.
As I’ve mentioned before, Origin don’t do certificates and as for belts or stripes the head coach decides as and when.
There is no set time limitation.
As you climb higher the expectations of knowledge by all around you increases.
As a Black belt I feel that my journey still has a long way to go and that seems to be similar for a lot of practitioners that I have spoke with.
There is no set time limitation.
As you climb higher the expectations of knowledge by all around you increases.
As a Black belt I feel that my journey still has a long way to go and that seems to be similar for a lot of practitioners that I have spoke with.
