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Are we verifying all belts or just the most recent promotion?
3 year(s) ago • 2423 views • 23 replies
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I have seen a few profiles where people provide excellent documentation for their most recent belt, but not for any of their previous belts. For example, someone might have great black belt documentation (e.g., photos of their promotion along with an authentic certificate and a congratulatory social media post from their instructor), but then no evidence whatsoever for brown, purple, or blue (though they list promotion dates, the promoting instructor, the location, etc. for these other belts).
When we vote to approve a profile, are we certifying the complete promotion history, or just the most recent rank? I was under the impression that it was the complete history, but I'm seeing some people get verified based on evidence for their highest belt rank only.
I checked the FAQ (https://www.beltchecker.c[...]rification), and under "Do I need to have each of my belt promotions verified one at a time?", it says, "No. The votes are for the profile and promotion history in its entirety. Make sure to enter all your belts in your promotion history from the beginning, so people vote for your most recent rank." The "in its entirety" part makes me think we're certifying the whole history, but the "people vote for your most recent rank" part makes it sound like only the highest rank matters.
Ultimately, only the current rank really matters, but I'm reticent to have my "Yes" vote attached to a person's whole profile when they provided evidence for only one belt. What are your thoughts?
When we vote to approve a profile, are we certifying the complete promotion history, or just the most recent rank? I was under the impression that it was the complete history, but I'm seeing some people get verified based on evidence for their highest belt rank only.
I checked the FAQ (https://www.beltchecker.c[...]rification), and under "Do I need to have each of my belt promotions verified one at a time?", it says, "No. The votes are for the profile and promotion history in its entirety. Make sure to enter all your belts in your promotion history from the beginning, so people vote for your most recent rank." The "in its entirety" part makes me think we're certifying the whole history, but the "people vote for your most recent rank" part makes it sound like only the highest rank matters.
Ultimately, only the current rank really matters, but I'm reticent to have my "Yes" vote attached to a person's whole profile when they provided evidence for only one belt. What are your thoughts?
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I look at the profile overall, but you have to be realistic and understand that if someone has been training a long time they might not have much documentation for earlier belts.
DKBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I tend to glance over the whole profile before deciding whether or not to cast a vote. I usually make sure everything is in order before giving them my approval. Though, Matt is correct: if they have been training for 10 plus years then I take that into account and look more closely at their current rank and who promoted them.
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Transparency is key and I've seen many higher belts write comments on the lower belts that the dates are approximate. Many of us also received our lower belts at a time when you didn't always carry a (cellphone)camera and still today, diplomas are quite uncommon. So I don't think many BB:s would be verified if good proof was generally demanded already from the blue belt promotion.
There has to be an overall believability of the profile though and the last two or so instructor awarded promotions are really key and good evidence there can weigh up for missing evidence on earlier promotions.
Sometimes, really good evidence on earlier belts can also weigh up for less strong evidence (but a picture with the same instructor) on a later belt. E.g. pictures show instructor putting on or holding the blue and purple belt of the student but only standing beside the person on a claimed promotion picture for brown belt. Pictures still show that the promoting instructor and the student have invested in each other over many years and it would be very unlikely that the teacher would have posed for the picture if he/she didn't support the belt on their long term student.
All in my personal opinion.
There has to be an overall believability of the profile though and the last two or so instructor awarded promotions are really key and good evidence there can weigh up for missing evidence on earlier promotions.
Sometimes, really good evidence on earlier belts can also weigh up for less strong evidence (but a picture with the same instructor) on a later belt. E.g. pictures show instructor putting on or holding the blue and purple belt of the student but only standing beside the person on a claimed promotion picture for brown belt. Pictures still show that the promoting instructor and the student have invested in each other over many years and it would be very unlikely that the teacher would have posed for the picture if he/she didn't support the belt on their long term student.
All in my personal opinion.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Cellphone of choice back when I started was the Nokia 6100 so no pics
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
The most depressing part about looking at the whole profile is the fact that I had hair when I started training and by blue belt I didn't.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The most depressing part about looking at the whole profile is the fact that I had hair when I started training and by blue belt I didn't.
depressing talk of migrating hair from the tops of our heads to the bottom of our chins is explicitly banned, especially talk of hair growth in unknown and unexpected places
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Technically no one is verifying anyone's belt.
Only their promoting instructor(s) can do that.
It is a nice way to pass the time though.
Everyone seems to forget that the creator of this site said this site was part "social experiment".
We are the test subjects.
Only their promoting instructor(s) can do that.
It is a nice way to pass the time though.
Everyone seems to forget that the creator of this site said this site was part "social experiment".
We are the test subjects.
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Technically no one is verifying anyone's belt. Only their promoting instructor(s) can do that….
I was using “verify” is the literal sense of “to establish the truth, accuracy, or reality of” a claim. It seems like that’s what a “Yes” vote on Beltchecker does: we say that sufficient evidence has been provided to support a person’s claim, “I hold this rank in BJJ.” A “No” vote does the opposite: it says there is insufficient evidence to support the truth, accuracy, and reality of a rank claim (or worse, that there is evidence that directly refutes the claim). If we’re not “verifying,” then what are we doing? Sorry; I don’t mean to be argumentative here (though as an academic philosopher, I suppose it’s in my nature :) ). I’m still “the new guy,” so I want to better understand what we’re doing so that I can vote appropriately. Thanks!
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
This is a good question, I think.
I know people who are black belts now, who spent very little time at certain belts, were skipped over a belt or two, or went through their lower belt ranks in another discipline/system entirely (like 10th Planet or Yudansha).
There are tons of documented cases of some very famous people who were controversially skipped straight to black belt. How would you vote on them?
If Jair Bolsonaro were to create a beltchecker profile, would you verify it? What about Travis Stevens? Marco Ruas?
I know people who are black belts now, who spent very little time at certain belts, were skipped over a belt or two, or went through their lower belt ranks in another discipline/system entirely (like 10th Planet or Yudansha).
There are tons of documented cases of some very famous people who were controversially skipped straight to black belt. How would you vote on them?
If Jair Bolsonaro were to create a beltchecker profile, would you verify it? What about Travis Stevens? Marco Ruas?
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Good point, Robert. I can think of two different cases here.
In the first case, someone is promoted straight from white belt to another colored belt. This happened to me because I trained MMA for several years before starting BJJ, so Charuto Verissimo promoted me directly from white to purple (which was horrifying, since I felt like suddenly had a big purple target tied around my waist :) ). Kiko France did the same thing for Ben Askren when he joined ATT Columbia (and none of us felt bad about it because Ben was such a dominant grappler with an excellent work ethic). As long as the person explains the jump (following the “I have skipped a belt..." instructions in the Beltchecker FAQ) and provides sufficient evidence for the rank they received, I feel that I can vote “Yes.” In this case, I would be voting to support the only rank they had listed on the page, since they skipped a belt (or two).
In the second case—and this is the type of thing I’m seeing that made me pose this question in the first place—a person hasn’t skipped any ranks, but they only provide evidence for their most recent promotion. This is the example I gave in my first post: a black belt who provides evidence for his black belt promotion, but not for brown/purple/blue, even though he lists these in his profile along with promotion dates/locations and promoting instructors. In this case, I’m wondering if I’m voting to certify all of the promotions (including the ones with no evidence) or just the most recent one (which has plenty of evidence).
I think direct promotion to black belt is excessive, though Marco Ruas was a Luta Livre champion and his uncle, Vinicio Ruas, was one of the pioneers of BJJ. I know Carlson Gracie and others were highly critical of Ruas’ promotion, though it would be hard for me to argue that Ruas didn’t have the skill set given his performance in the UFC and other venues. I understand that Travis Stevens was promoted by John Danaher over a short period of time (about 18 months), but apparently went through all of the belts, albeit very quickly. As a judo sliver medalist, he definitely had the skills to progress at a rapid pace, and his work ethic is legendary. The Bolsonaro promotion was just an empty political gesture, a bit like the honorary doctorates that colleges and universities give to guest speakers. I doubt he has the skills to back up his promotion. Maybe a rival political candidate will dojo storm him. :)
In the first case, someone is promoted straight from white belt to another colored belt. This happened to me because I trained MMA for several years before starting BJJ, so Charuto Verissimo promoted me directly from white to purple (which was horrifying, since I felt like suddenly had a big purple target tied around my waist :) ). Kiko France did the same thing for Ben Askren when he joined ATT Columbia (and none of us felt bad about it because Ben was such a dominant grappler with an excellent work ethic). As long as the person explains the jump (following the “I have skipped a belt..." instructions in the Beltchecker FAQ) and provides sufficient evidence for the rank they received, I feel that I can vote “Yes.” In this case, I would be voting to support the only rank they had listed on the page, since they skipped a belt (or two).
In the second case—and this is the type of thing I’m seeing that made me pose this question in the first place—a person hasn’t skipped any ranks, but they only provide evidence for their most recent promotion. This is the example I gave in my first post: a black belt who provides evidence for his black belt promotion, but not for brown/purple/blue, even though he lists these in his profile along with promotion dates/locations and promoting instructors. In this case, I’m wondering if I’m voting to certify all of the promotions (including the ones with no evidence) or just the most recent one (which has plenty of evidence).
I think direct promotion to black belt is excessive, though Marco Ruas was a Luta Livre champion and his uncle, Vinicio Ruas, was one of the pioneers of BJJ. I know Carlson Gracie and others were highly critical of Ruas’ promotion, though it would be hard for me to argue that Ruas didn’t have the skill set given his performance in the UFC and other venues. I understand that Travis Stevens was promoted by John Danaher over a short period of time (about 18 months), but apparently went through all of the belts, albeit very quickly. As a judo sliver medalist, he definitely had the skills to progress at a rapid pace, and his work ethic is legendary. The Bolsonaro promotion was just an empty political gesture, a bit like the honorary doctorates that colleges and universities give to guest speakers. I doubt he has the skills to back up his promotion. Maybe a rival political candidate will dojo storm him. :)
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
In the first case, someone is promoted straight from white belt to another colored belt. This happened to me because I trained MMA for several years before starting BJJ, so Charuto Verissimo promoted me directly from white to purple (which was horrifying, since I felt like suddenly had a big purple target tied around my waist :) ).
I'm in a similar situation in judo: my instructor at the time decided to promote me straight to yonkyu (green belt in the US system) due to the fact that I'm an ex-collegiate wrestler and, at the time, a brown belt in bjj. I made sure to mention this in my promotional history on judochecker.
Even the ibjjf allows for skipping belt ranks in the case of kids who age out of the kids' belt system: the year that the youth competitor turns 16, the promoting instructor is required to promote them to either blue or purple belt. In the case of the latter, they would have skipped blue belt completely.
On a related note, the ibjjf now allows a competitor to receive a promotion that violates their traditional time-in-grade (i.e. 2yrs at blue belt) so long as the competitor in question has won a world championship.
Even the ibjjf allows for skipping belt ranks in the case of kids who age out of the kids' belt system: the year that the youth competitor turns 16, the promoting instructor is required to promote them to either blue or purple belt. In the case of the latter, they would have skipped blue belt completely.
On a related note, the ibjjf now allows a competitor to receive a promotion that violates their traditional time-in-grade (i.e. 2yrs at blue belt) so long as the competitor in question has won a world championship.
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
There are tons of documented cases of some very famous people who were controversially skipped straight to black belt. How would you vote on them? If Jair Bolsonaro were to create a beltchecker profile, would you verify it? What about Travis Stevens? Marco Ruas?
Tim Kennedy is one that I can recall that was promoted straight to black.
MGPurple beltVerified
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I was using “verify” is the literal sense of “to establish the truth, accuracy, or reality of” a claim. It seems like that’s what a “Yes” vote on Beltchecker does: we say that sufficient evidence has been provided to support a person’s claim, “I hold this rank in BJJ.” A “No” vote does the opposite: it says there is insufficient evidence to support the truth, accuracy, and reality of a rank claim (or worse, that there is evidence that directly refutes the claim). If we’re not “verifying,” then what are we doing? Sorry; I don’t mean to be argumentative here (though as an academic philosopher, I suppose it’s in my nature :) ). I’m still “the new guy,” so I want to better understand what we’re doing so that I can vote appropriately. Thanks!
I understand your meaning. It's all good.
We are just viewing peoples profiles and approving of the information they provide.
As long as their promoting instructor vouches and stands by them, it really doesn't matter what we do unless Beltchecker becomes the official governing body of BJJ. Just like IBJJF, not everyone will fall in line.
While I enjoy this site and I like voting on profiles, I don't take it too seriously.
We are just viewing peoples profiles and approving of the information they provide.
As long as their promoting instructor vouches and stands by them, it really doesn't matter what we do unless Beltchecker becomes the official governing body of BJJ. Just like IBJJF, not everyone will fall in line.
While I enjoy this site and I like voting on profiles, I don't take it too seriously.
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm in a similar situation in judo: my instructor at the time decided to promote me straight to yonkyu (green belt in the US system) due to the fact that I'm an ex-collegiate wrestler and, at the time, a brown belt in bjj.
That happened to me in judo, too. I was a BJJ purple belt and had done some informal judo training with a BJJ teammate in Hawaii, so I knew many of the throws when I started. After a month, my coach promoted me to green belt (yonkyu). I haven't done anything on Judochecker because my nidan is certified through USA Judo (https://www.teamusa.org/U[...]tions/2018). I also have no promotion photos or social media posts about my judo promotions, and I have no idea about my lineage between Jigoro Kano and my judo coach (Randy Russell). I don't feel like I could make a good case.
JBBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I generally take the whole profile into account when making a judgement. If they have not provided the correct documentation I will either leave them a wall note just in case they do not know what they need to do or I’ll wait and return later to see if they have updated the information.
DKBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I generally take the whole profile into account when making a judgement. If they have not provided the correct documentation I will either leave them a wall note just in case they do not know what they need to do or I’ll wait and return later to see if they have updated the information.
I do the same, but not everyone is going to have every piece of information available or may be lost. If some docs are missing I will see if their current coach as verified them as a student, vouch for them, and/or is their promoting instructor has confirmed them. Sometimes these are good indicators.
I try not to be overly critical, but not so relax that a fake profile may bear my approval.
I try not to be overly critical, but not so relax that a fake profile may bear my approval.
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Tim Kennedy is one that I can recall that was promoted straight to black.
I've rolled with Tim many times. That black belt is well deserved.
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I've rolled with Tim many times. That black belt is well deserved.
Even if no one had ever heard of Tim, I’d imagine not many would question Paulo Brandao’s judgment on that promotion.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Even if no one had ever heard of Tim, I’d imagine not many would question Paulo Brandao’s judgment on that promotion.
He is a beast by all accounts
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
You are verifying A PROFILE not belt(s). If profile makes sense, it makes sense. That includes everything on the profile.
JJimOP
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
You are verifying A PROFILE not belt(s). If profile makes sense, it makes sense. That includes everything on the profile.
Thanks! This makes sense. But does this mean we need to change the name of the website to “Profilechecker”? ;) (Sorry; the philosopher in me couldn’t resist. :) )
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Well, I'd say we verify the profile. But more specifically that the profile, through evidence, documentation and structure, makes a transparent and convincing case that you have the promotions you claim.
