No I just roll more.

Moved this to main forum, since it doesn't really belong in off-topic :)

Thanks for that! I was Originally going to post it there, but wasn’t sure.

Closing in on 40, I think that basic strength training is nothing less than a MUST addition to just rolling. Squats, deadlifts, presses etc. with heavyish weight help to keep the joints (and the body in general) stronger and thus prevent injuries.

Jessie, we share about the same training numbers. (But I have no proper lifting history beyond basic gymfuckery for the past 20 years.) I also always hit the weights during a day on my lunch break, so I have to keep the session quite short & effective.

For many many years, as my weight training to supplement BJJ, I just used to do the basic lifts (deads, squats, press, bench press, pullups...) once week, for sets of 5, with as much weight as I can. Each lift once a week. This kept me relatively strong (never have felt overpowered in my weight division) and helped preserve the muscle mass, BUT I found it quite boring because I was not making any progression with my numbers, except when I got a little heavier on off-season, then lost that when I had to weight cut for a comp again. (I still think this is a decent system for those with limited time, but boring.)

I have also found out that if I try to make the weight training too sport-specific (gi pull-ups etc.) it will be too taxing for me. I always do the weights during the day, then jiujitsu class in the evening on the same day. (Rather have full rest days.)

We also typically have a kind of S&C circuit session in our academy's comp class at least twice a week, with stuff like different kind of explosive jumps, battle ropes, pull-ups etc.

Last season I had a friend, who is an actual professional strength coach with plenty of knowledge about training MMA athletes etc, design me a program.

WORTH IT.

The program was designed for peaking in the biggest comps of the season, and changed every 2 or so weeks. Not much more complex exercises were added (although definitely some interesting variations), but the way they were done was something new to me. For example, "tempo" played a big part: at what speed do you do the eccentric/concentric part of the lift, and do you stop in between & for how long. (Typical was lowering it down slower, then doing the lifting part explosively.) He also introduced a lot of paused lifts, also so that lifts are paused in-between multiple times, because often in grappling we have to deal with these kind of forces. Making some exercises require more explosiveness with rubber bands, coupling exercises such as hand-clap push-ups directly after bench press, or different kind of jumps after deads etc. Limiting the range of motion to be able to still go heavy without it being too taxing when a comp got closer, and the list went on.

All these tricks made it possible, for example, to use a little less weight but still make the lifts challenging and recover better when that was needed as the grappling training got more intense. Most importantly, it made training with the weights FUN again.

Cardio I've found is easier to build up with high intensity jiujitsu sparring. To achieve decent strength levels, weights are needed for sure.

Tatu,

Thank you for your detailed response. It sounds like you have a good understanding and methodology for your training to compliment your BJJ.

I currently workout in the evenings after BJJ class because I too enjoy full rest days during my off days. I think I need to follow your approach on when to train. Currently, I go to BJJ at 6:30-8:00PM and then the gym from 8:30-9:30PM. Large number of studies show that adequate rest is needed in between training sessions like that or there is a large increased risk to injury. Starting today, I will push my evening workout into my lunch break since we have a good gym at more work. Thanks for that!

Time under tension (TUT), tempo, volume are all key components to a great workout for safety & gains! I am a huge fan of taking the eccentric motion nice and slow and then exploding on the concentric portion. Every now and then I’ll add in the isometric portion of the lift because I tend to reach a lot of isometric tendencies in BJJ.

That is awesome you have a friend who is a professional strength coach! I have been a personal trainer for about 5 years now (ACE & NCCPT) however, the curriculum you learn for personal training compared to what you learn for a CSCS or any other strength coach certification is very different. I really need to just dive into studying that curriculum to better aid my training.

I still jog for some light cardio and often swim in the lake, but nothing comes close to matching the cardio of an intense BJJ roll!

Thanks again for all the feedback! I am going to adjust my training timing and reevaluate my volume/TUT. Hopefully to reduce risk of injury and improve supplemental strength and endurance.

I too think basic weight training with weights that actually doesn't have to be anywhere close to your max is very beneficial.

If one wants to keep doing BJJ, GPP should be an addition that doesn't diminish your capability to train BJJ. It's really easy to have the overall volume too high - if that's the case, you'll be just a little less sharp in BJJ and that slows learning and increases risk of injury.

What is this? General physical preparedness?

I have such a short time window reserved for the weights (lunch hour training), it practically cuts the volume down by necessity, so never have had this problem. :D

Yup that's what it is. And this 1 hr during lunch is a super practical solution for the likes of us.

I just browsed over this conversation, here just a few quick thoughts that came up while reading the comments here. However, these are pretty general thoughts on training here from my side. I believe everyone´s needs are different in some way, based on so many factors like physical limitations, abilities, skill level, injuries in the present or past, lifestyle, sleep/rest, etc etc...
1) Yes for strength training with high effort and low reps for developing strength. Everything else goes towards strength/endurance, or even endurance which is pretty much what you already do during your BJ sessions. Complimentary to your BJJ would be in my eyes, strength training. However "movement based training" will add a huge benefit to your rolling practice since your body is constantly learning about joint positioning and hence better understanding of its own position in space.
2) Doing strength training after BJJ could be potentially a high injury risk. Your CNS is most likely pretty taxed after BJJ and there is not much capacity left. However, for any kind of lifting, in order to have the right sequencing and muscle activation, i.e. injury free training, you need to have the CNS ideally operating at full capacity. Strength training with a pre-fatigued CNS -> injury just waiting to happen.

Choices of exercises is something that highly depends on the individuals capabilities, skills, limitations and intention (think pro vs am).

This is a huge topic in my eyes. And there are so many things more that would need to be said in regards to what kind of training/movement/routines are beneficial for BJJ.

Happy to keep this conversation going back and firth some more, this is good!

Has anyone here seen Steve Maxwell's commentary on how most people are lifting wrong? I'm not an expert, more a 'long time lurker' on this topic, but I found his stuff refreshing.

High weight low reps (1-3) strength training is highly movement-specific so the carryover to BJJ is debatable. Also it's higher injury risk. Also - the body doesn't count reps. It's all load/effort X time under tension (TUT) = volume.

The carryover is questionable, for sure. However it depends on the choice of exercises.
For example, doing only bi-lateral lower body strength training will not have the biggest benefit for anyone as the body is able to compensate and hide faulty movement patterns / dysfunction. The "functional" aspect (which will be partly the carry over to BJJ) is much higher when doing single leg work, for example doing single leg dead lifts rather then "normal" dead lifts.
For the aspect of carryover, thats also why I mentioned doing some ground-based-bodyweight-movement-training... this will force the CNS to be super stimulated and to have all systems in your body communicating.

I am currently following Jim Wendler´s 5/3/1 program, while being extra conservative with the amount of weights I´m using. It´s a good program, where you increase the weights and reduce the reps over three weeks, before a fourth de-load week, and then starting over again with a slightly higher load. The focus is on the four main lifts, Overhead press, Deadlift, Bench press, Squats.

Some weeks I do each of the lifts on separate days, with a good amount of assistance exercises, like rows, Turkish get-ups and kettlebell swings. When I have less time for strength training, I do twice a week, with Press and Deadlift on the same day, and Bench and Squat on the other. And then I will reduce the amount of assistance exercises.

If you train with this method (hi weight lo reps on big lifts such as deads, squats, overhead press...) and improve your strength greatly, you are also stronger when doing BJJ.

Am I wrong?

I'm not arguing it's the ideal method, but plenty of strength can be gained this way, and seems silly to suggest that being stronger in general doesn't carry over to grappling.

I took a job over a year ago that stressed me so much, that I all but completely quit training and taking care of myself physically (and mentally for that matter.)

I went from 180lbs to 210lbs.
So I quit my job, and dedicated myself to feeling happy again. That included BJJ and fitness.
I began with doing what I thought I knew to do with regards to weight training, and kept hurting myself doing squats, and power cleans and such.

So I decided to start doing bodyweight exercises only, and followed ThenX.com workout of the day for about 6 months.
This got me lean and strong enough to begin lifting again, so I decided to start trying to add lifting.

I started working out at lunch with a coworker, and his methods have proved to me to be the best thing.

We do high intensity, compound weight training 5 days a week in circuit format. From my calisthenics training, I added a lot of core exercises to his established routine
IT looks like this, but does vary week to week with regards to specific exercises, % of max, and reps based on weight being lifted.

Each session begins with a 5 minute treadmill run at whatever speed we want to push, but cannot fall between 8MPH (7:30 min/mile.) I usually push between 9-10MPH (6-6:40 min/mile)

Monday: Circuit to be repeated X6
-Back squats - 10Reps
-Leg Press - 10 Reps
- 45lb jumping split squats - 10 reps
- bodyweight sprint
-mountain climbers - 30 reps
-pushups - 15 reps
-boat seat leg extensions - 15 reps

Tuesday: Circuit to be repeated X6
- Flat bench - 10 reps
- dumbell flys -10 reps
- Bosu ball pushups - 10 reps
- Bodyweight dips - 8 reps
- Knees to chest with 25lb weight between feet on dip bars - 10 reps (5-10 second L-Sit after last rep)

Wednesday: Circuit to be repeated X6
- Sumo dead lift - 10 reps
- Russian kettlebell swings - 35lbs 10 reps (I squat deep in this and do not bend forward on the downswing. I allow my core to fight the forward bend, and stay chest up)
- Weight wide grip pull ups - 45lb tethered weight - Drop set 8 reps
- Hammer grip pull up crunches - 25 lbs weight between feet - 8 reps (pull up, and bring knees to chest to full crunch at top)

Thursday: Circuit to be repeated X6
- Strict overhead press - 10 reps (barbell after one initial power clean)
-Russian kettlebell swings - 35lbs 10 reps (same as last time)
-Shrugs - 10 reps (holding a 45lb plate in each hand)
-Hanging windshield wipers - 10 reps

Saturday - Circuit to be repeated X6
- Holy Trinity sprint
- Power Cleans - 5 reps
- Overhead push press - 5 reps
- Front squats - 5 reps
-Inclined dumbell press - 10 reps
- Inclined dumbell flys - 10 reps
-TRX Plank exercises (TRX is a system of tethers to an overhead anchor point, with two handles that we drop to floor, hook one on each foot, and get in a high plank position)
-Pikes - 8 reps (leg and arms stay straight, butt goes straight in air, spine vertical, bending at waist then back down to plank)
-Mountain climbers - 8 reps
- Knees to chest thrust - 8 reps
- Hammer grip L-sit pull ups - 10 reps


I also train BJJ 7 days a week. My GF trains with me 7 days a week, so it is very easy to find the time. She would train twice a day 7 days a week if she could.
Some of those days are hard, some are not. Saturdays, for instance, are no gi wrestling drills and flow, then hard wrestling for about an hour and 20 minutes, then 30 minutes of light no gi. Today will be a mix of judo and BJJ gi at noon because the judo guys come to the Friday open mats, so I take the opportunity to work judo.

When I feel beat up and need to take a day off, I do so. If I feel good that day, and skip the gym, I feel super depressed, so I try to never miss.

I went from that 210lbs to 175 pounds, and am carrying more muscle than I ever have before, at around 10% body fat.
I eat once a day, at noon after my lunchtime workout. It is just what works for me, and I try to eat plenty of well rounded foods in that meal.

Edit to add: I do work. I went back to an old job that I enjoyed when I quit my stressful job. I work 50 hours a week in a 5 day workweek most of the time. Friday is a halfday for me.
It is just all we do is train, and travel, and plan our travel around competitions and training. So everywhere we go we bring gis, and line out training sessions during vacations. BJJ is our thing we do for fun, fitness, competitive purposes, meeting people, travel, etc

It's debatable because this increase in strength comes from neural pathways being improved - you don't grow much muscle with heavy weight and low volume. And this increase is highly movement-specific.

I'm lazy, so I go to a personal trainer twice a week: she tells me what to do. :)

Moving big blue belts around is all the weight training I get. Seriously, as a featherweight in mid-40s who just likes to roll as much as possible, I find that I need recovery time than weight training. Likely I could benefit from some better balance, but it would cut into my playtime.

Interesting! (And yeah, I'm very willing to admit being wrong.)

I have been reading quite a bit about the subject, most of it years ago, but the info is all over the place, and the actual study papers themselves often dry af.

I've still held the assumption that training the hi weight/lo rep way is indeed good for martial artists, because we often have want to weight as little as possible (so not too much muscle growth is desirable) while being as strong as possible.

I've never even considered doing, for example, single leg deadlifts like Sascha is suggesting a few posts earlier, for better carryover vs. traditional deads.

The "sets of 5" I picked from Starting Strength ages ago, and just kept on banging it. Also the attitude that more weight = better.

But like said, actually having the program designed by somebody who knows what he is doing has been a gamechanger. And indeed there has been also single leg stuff (which I've pretty much all viewed as "stand with one leg on a bosy ball on top of a balance board while lifting a 1kg dumbbell with an upside-down grip from your left knee to your right ear as you chew gum with your eyes closed" type of PT crap) included, such as different types of lunges, which I've never done before.

If you're under strengthed, then yah, lift them weights, but you're going to build those "neural pathways" for specific strength by practicing the moves while rolling. Me, I never lift weights, but I'm strong, so I don't see the point in lifting inanimate objects when I can just roll hard and get a good workout that way. To each their own though.

I lift almost every day. I train like a classic body builder split. I've been a fat fuck my entire life so clearly it hasn't worked. I do it because I like it. I don't give a flying fuck if it compliments my jits or hampers it. That is all. :)

Well, that's you. Congrats on winning in the genetic lottery.

And... that's also other people too: you always find these Obelix-types (not referring to the bodytype) who have fell into the druid's magic potion cauldron as a baby, and thus have superhuman strength despite never visiting the weightroom.

I need to work out to match guys like you.

(And in these convos, somebody always brings up that Marcelo never trained strength and he is the GOAT and strong af...)

For each of your type though, there tends to be at least three times the dudes who roll a ton, but their body composition is shit and they are weak fucks, so they rely on flexibility, technique and lapels to beat my ass instead of good ol' manpower.

I also do believe in the injury-prevention qualities of some proper heavy lifting. And being an office worker, nothing helps out with my back as much as weekly deadlifts.

Kyle Bradley, color me fucking impressed.

You are only 1 year younger than me, not single, work 50 hours a week AND weight train 5 days a week, train BJJ 7 days a week & find time to write forum posts this long. I really don't know how this is possible. :D

I have been able to train grappling multiple times a day when not working (training camps etc.) and thus getting long nights of sleep, naps and loads of food, but just with a full time office job + commuting, your training numbers would leave me burnt out in a few weeks.

As an older grappler with family and job commitments, I find it difficult to dedicate time and energy to a lifting schedule. Especially when training bjj 5 days a week and teaching classes is my priority. Just don’t want to sacrifice bjj training for weight training.

This past year I decided to add in some weight training to build functional strength, reduce potential injury, and strengthen my aching lower back.

I started doing “Tactical Barbell“ for Operational Athletes several months ago which I found to provide great results with minimal time/effort and no BS. Provides templates (fighter, operator, etc.) to follow depending on your goals and time. Still leaves plenty of gas in the tank to train bjj. Program is intended for leo, military, etc, to maximize performance but keep ready to go to work at a moments notice. (If your looking to be a powerlifter or bodybuilder you’ll need a different program..)

I’m now doing Simple & Sinister kettlebells for the next 20 weeks. Quick, functional, and is a workout that “gives more than it takes out of you.” I’m fortunate to have a certified StrongFirst coach that I work with trading Jiu Jitsu privates for personal S&C training. There is a huge difference in tossing weights around vs following proper guidance and techniques with a specific purpose in mind. Up to 30 minutes a day / 5 days a week, No equipment other than 2 kettlebells. Done.

Bottom line - I’m definitely benefiting from incorporating some minimal S&C into training. I’ve always been told that strength doesn’t matter, which isn’t the complete story. It absolutely does. As a sub-150lb person, having stronger and more stabilized joints, and using strength properly combined with technique against individuals with 50 pounds on me makes a big difference in rolling and staying safer. Especially as I get older.

LOL thanks

Allow me to tell you my secrets.

Like a mentioned above, my gf wants to train more than anyone on the planet, so that helps

I also have the ability and freedom with work to midday nap should I feel the need. And I do maybe not often, but it ain’t a surprising thing either

i lift people when i roll... thats all. like for fun, without even throwing them

If anyone is interested in starting to weight train, barbell medicine has a free "beginner prescription", and video instruction of how the lifts are performed. You can include your bjj training instead of doing the gpp sessions.

I see you approach the weights with the same meticulousness as you approach newcomers profiles on Beltchecker :D
To me, lifting (anything repetitive really) has always been super boring and I can only do it when I settle into a routine and "just do it" because it'll help me to do other things I like.

Savage :D