Belts based on exams. Yeah I know this will piss off some of you, but sorry, what separated jiu jitsu from the other martial arts for me, was how you got belted. You get your blue when you can hang with the blues, purple when you hang with the purples, etc.

Probably one of those situations where there are different types, but if you have like 6 out of 10 "symptoms", for example, then you're probably training at a McDojo.

These would be some indicators for me, personally:

1) folks are getting ranked significantly more quickly than 99% of other gyms in the world.
2) paying for promotions.
3) instructor never rolls.
4) instructor has a shady promotion history.
5) instructor tries to disguise their true rank somehow (i.e. wears their karate black belt instead of true bjj belt).
6) students are discouraged from competing.
7) students are told, explicitly or implicitly, that they shouldn't train with anyone else, for any sort of made-up reason.

These are just some that came to mind in like 2 minutes, and while doing just one of these things might be fine, 3-4 of these things would be a big, fat, red McDojo flag for me.

^ This sums it up pretty well.

If the students don't acknowledge their masters with an "Oss"... McDojo

Here are a few more McDojo characteristics:
(1) Kids with black belts.
(2) Lots of made-up belts that defy the normal sequence.
(3) Lots of hidden costs (e.g., having to join the “Black Belt Club” to get promoted).
(4) A cult-like atmosphere where the instructor is never questioned.

These are two huge ones.

Numbers 2 abs 3, however much of a turn-off they are, there are gym owners who don't know much about business, and they seek out help from these guys who promise to get you 5 million students by following their advice, and sometimes legit folks who don't know any better will try and institute policies like this, because of these "business" advisor guys.

Still should be a red flag, for sure.

I totally agree, except for black belt. I'm starting to warm up the idea that a black belt is a special rank and the last one that isn't time based. I think it should be who you can hang with until you get to black. Maybe you should be tested on the breadth of your knowledge as well as your ability to execute what you know against a resisting opponent

I like it, it's difficult to agree on a clean cut definition, but if quacks like a duck on 6 of these 12 items... ^^

essentially : over-commercialized + low-quality

personal opinion :
- extremely regimented instructions, no deviations from the set curriculum, no room for questions
- marketing focus: sure it can be a business, but there are levels to sleazy sales tactics
- forced to buy the club gear, uniforms enforced
- cult of personality, especially of the head instructor who rarely visits



good list from Robert:
1) folks are getting ranked significantly more quickly than 99% of other gyms in the world.
2) paying for promotions.
3) instructor never rolls.
4) instructor has a shady promotion history.
5) instructor tries to disguise their true rank somehow (i.e. wears their karate black belt instead of true bjj belt).
6) students are discouraged from competing.
7) students are told, explicitly or implicitly, that they shouldn't train with anyone else, for any sort of made-up reason.

from Jim;
(1) Kids with black belts.
(2) Lots of made-up belts that defy the normal sequence.
(3) Lots of hidden costs (e.g., having to join the “Black Belt Club” to get promoted).
(4) A cult-like atmosphere where the instructor is never questioned.

I'll ask GPT4 what it thinks of Mc.Dojo in another post below ^^

prompt : in martial arts, some dojos are referred to as "Mc-Dojo", what does it mean?

GPT : The term "McDojo" is a pejorative term used in the martial arts community to describe a martial arts school or dojo that is seen as low-quality, commercialized, or focused primarily on profit rather than the genuine teaching and development of martial arts skills. The term is derived from the fast-food chain McDonald's, which is known for its quick and standardized food.

McDojos are often criticized for prioritizing quantity over quality, having inexperienced or unqualified instructors, promoting students based on the ability to pay rather than skill level, and offering overly simplified or watered-down martial arts training. Additionally, McDojos may focus heavily on marketing gimmicks and flashy techniques, rather than teaching the fundamental principles and techniques necessary for real-world self-defense or traditional martial arts practice.

prompt : itemized list of 12 characteristics of such a low-quality, commercialized offering.



Inexperienced or unqualified instructors: McDojos often have instructors with limited martial arts experience, dubious qualifications, or no proper lineage or credentials from a recognized martial arts organization.

Fast promotions and belt factory: McDojos may promote students through belt ranks quickly, based on payment or attendance rather than genuine skill, creating a "belt factory" atmosphere.

High fees and contracts: McDojos often charge excessive fees for classes, mandatory gear, and testing, and may require long-term contracts that lock students into paying for extended periods.

Excessive focus on marketing: McDojos may prioritize marketing, advertising, and recruitment over the quality of instruction and the development of genuine martial arts skills.

No sparring or limited contact: McDojos may avoid or limit full-contact sparring, which is essential for developing practical self-defense skills and understanding the effectiveness of techniques.

Emphasis on flashy techniques: McDojos often teach flashy, impractical techniques that may look good in demonstrations but have little real-world application.

Guaranteed black belts: McDojos may promise students that they will achieve a black belt within a specific time frame, regardless of skill level or commitment.

High-pressure sales tactics: McDojos may use aggressive sales tactics to persuade potential students to sign up for classes or purchase expensive gear and memberships.

Lack of emphasis on physical fitness: McDojos may not prioritize physical fitness or conditioning, which is an essential aspect of martial arts training.

Oversimplified curriculum: McDojos may offer a watered-down version of a martial art, with a limited and overly simplified curriculum that lacks depth and substance.

No focus on tradition or history: McDojos may neglect the cultural, historical, and philosophical aspects of the martial art they teach, focusing only on the superficial aspects.

Inflated titles and ranks: McDojos may bestow inflated titles and ranks upon instructors and students, giving the appearance of high-level expertise without the skills or knowledge to back it up.

edit :
"No focus on tradition or history: McDojos may neglect the cultural, historical, and philosophical aspects of the martial art they teach, focusing only on the superficial aspects."
For this one I actually think it might be the exact opposite: a dojo focusing too much on the culture/philosophy/tradition is probably going to produce students who are better at following tradition and less proficient at actual jiu jitsu than savages like the irreverent B-Team.

I train in Japan, been here 25 years, and I've visited gyms abroad that are trying to be "more Japanese than the Japanese" and it feels odd. Like they're trying to live childhood samurai fantasies.

Ok. I think we're done here. Chat gpt for the win. I'm officially handing over my beltchecker profile to the robots from now on.

IIRC, Phrost and the team over at what became Bullshido.net came up with the term, and there was a clear distinction.

McDojo = shady business practices, but the actual quality of teaching wasn't necessarily bad
Bullshido = shady teaching and shitty techniques

I'll see if I can dig out one of the threads, there were some huge ones on there debating exactly what 'McDojo' and 'Bullshido' meant. Though of course language evolves, so it seems that at this point, McDojo has merged with Bullshido and they're seen as interchangeable words.

I think the problem with the “traditional” schools is not that they include Eastern philosophy, history, and culture, but rather that they don’t understand what they’re trying to teach. I have a Ph.D. in Asian and comparative philosophy, so I sometimes talk about philosophy or hoplology in class. The mall ninja McDojo instructors typically have no background in Asian studies, so they start telling tall tales about how their flying jump kicks were originally used to knock Mongol warriors out of their saddles, or how all samurai followed the “code of bushido.”

Hoplology, cool word, learned something new. Also, so is it also not true that TKD was to kick people of horses?

Good question, Deepu. Taekwondo was created in the mid-twentieth century, and though it included elements from older Korean styles like Taekkyon, it borrowed heavily from Japanese Karate. A lot of its history has been revised to eliminate the Japanese origins, which has sometimes resulted in apocryphal stories about the alleged history of the art that are not supported by historical sources.

As amazing as their aerial kicks are, TKD practitioners can’t jump high enough to kick a warrior off a horse. If the average horse (in contemporary times) is 1.5 m at the shoulder and the current Guinness record for a vertical leap is 1.42 m, the most talented TKD practitioner in the world would only be able to kick a rider in the thigh. Perhaps if the Mongols had invaded China on Shetland ponies… :)

An amazing idea can be to make a deal with a McDonald's to put mats in there and start the real McDojo. Where the fees give's you some discount at the restaurant part.

Most seriously, i saw pretty often people on the net, calling this or that bullshido, McDojo.... sometimes too fast, but now the net is full of keyboardmasters Who knows better so perhaps honest gyms are guilty's before even having seen any evidence. I'm carrefull when it is for bashing someone else work.

By the way, on the list above :
Pushing to buy the gyms products
Cult of personality
Following the program strictly

Make me think pretty much on Gracie Barra or others Gracie gyms... so i don't know what to think about criterias.

For me the most significan thing is a gym who praticipate to nothing, competitions, openmats, seminars,... this is what make me more suspicious

- cult of personality
- handing out belts like Oprah
- belt testing (€$£)
- instructor doesn't spar
- no full contact sparring
- new beginners course every month
- customers and instructors not allowed to train at other places
- social circle-jerks

Hmm. Based on this thread, McDojo does seems to be getting rather flabby as a term. Basically, "stuff we don't like."

Kinda similar to how right wingers use 'woke' as a catch-all for anything they dislike. ;)

it seems that this can be generalized.

"kinda similar to how [out-group] uses [mean word] as a catch-all for anything they dislike about [my in-group] "

also similar to cold-reading by charlatans or horoscopes; just throw enough stuff and hope something sticks ^^

also similar to the good old : "I know it when i see it" used by Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to explain his threshold test for what constitutes obscenity.

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that" 1964
(French Movie "Les Amants", 1958 - The Lovers)

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of dojo to be embraced within that shorthand description of "Mac Dojo", but I know it when I see it, and those Globetrotter camps are not that"

alright, it's a saturday morning and it's raining, so I took 15 minutes to put this beautiful piece of academic research together.

the main idea is that McDojoness is more of a continuum than a clear-cut thing, as is the line between hobbyists and competitors and elite competitors.

Maybe we can think of it in terms of Aristotle's Golden Mean.
Courage is great, but too much and you have recklessness, too little and it's cowardice.
generosity, wastefulness, stinginess
ambition, sloth, greed
humor, boringness, absurdity
composure, irritabgility, apathy
etc.

similarly, we could think of a training environment as having too much or too little of a particular ingredient, and some of it will always be subjective, so McDojoness is can't be clearly defined, but there are some telling signs that most will agree upon

For the following list I fed GPT4 again with some examples with this format :
golden mean | excess | deficiency
and asked it to weave on the subject. not bad.

I have no claim that any of this is authoritative, just discussing ^^

Challenging training:
Excess: Recklessly unsafe, aggressive
Deficiency: Unrealistic samurai roleplay


Physical conditioning:
Excess: Overtraining, leading to burnout or injury
Deficiency: Insufficient conditioning, resulting in limited progress
Technical instruction:

Excess: Overemphasis on complex techniques, neglecting fundamentals
Deficiency: Oversimplification of techniques, limiting effectiveness


Sparring intensity:
Excess: Full-contact sparring without proper safety measures or supervision
Deficiency: Limited or no contact sparring, preventing the development of practical skills


Teaching methodology:
Excess: Rigid, dogmatic instruction, stifling creativity and growth
Deficiency: Unstructured, laissez-faire teaching, resulting in confusion and lack of direction


Respect and discipline:
Excess: Authoritarian, overly strict environment, discouraging open communication
Deficiency: Disorganized, chaotic atmosphere, lacking in respect for tradition and hierarchy


Focus on tradition and history:
Excess: Overemphasis on historical aspects, neglecting practical application
Deficiency: Ignoring cultural context, reducing martial arts to mere physical activity

Inclusivity and community:
Excess: Overemphasis on group dynamics, neglecting individual needs and development
Deficiency: Excessive focus on individual competition, undermining the sense of community and support

Balancing self-defense and personal development:
Excess: Sole focus on self-defense techniques, ignoring character growth and discipline
Deficiency: Overemphasis on personal development, neglecting practical self-defense skills

Competition and performance:
Excess: Overemphasis on winning tournaments, fostering a win-at-all-costs mentality
Deficiency: Disregarding the value of competition, missing opportunities for growth and skill development

It's one of the best explanations I've seen so far on this subject though. Good one!

Gerald, you get extra points for invoking Aristotle's doctrine of the mean. 🤙

Promotions based purely on attendance frequency bug me. Some schools are blatantly honest about it. At least those gyms aren't hiding it, but it still feels like part of a McDojo value combo.

If the owner is named Nakamura, and he tells you to bow to your sensi


To soon?