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Modern hybrid or Pure waters?
3 year(s) ago • 741 views • 22 replies
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Related to this topic https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p;id=59660
I was curious to see how many people/coaches in particular on here consider themselves to be strictly following the Gracie curriculum: no deviation or changes, 100% 'traditional' Gracie like the Valente Bros, or modern hybrid, incorporating wrestling, No Gi, 10Planet, sambo, judo, etc. into their non-standard Jiu Jitsu academy/training?
I'll consider myself as the latter.
I was curious to see how many people/coaches in particular on here consider themselves to be strictly following the Gracie curriculum: no deviation or changes, 100% 'traditional' Gracie like the Valente Bros, or modern hybrid, incorporating wrestling, No Gi, 10Planet, sambo, judo, etc. into their non-standard Jiu Jitsu academy/training?
I'll consider myself as the latter.
CBBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I was curious to see how many people/coaches in particular on here consider themselves to be strictly following the Gracie curriculum:
Don't know it. Don't follow it. Don't care.
I came to BJJ to get away from the traditional vs modern dogma. Have no interest whatsoever in making it a part of my BJJ.
I came to BJJ to get away from the traditional vs modern dogma. Have no interest whatsoever in making it a part of my BJJ.
MBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Related to this topic https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p;id=59660 I was curious to see how many people/coaches in particular on here consider themselves to be strictly following the Gracie curriculum: no deviation or changes, 100% 'traditional' Gracie like the Valente Bros, or modern hybrid, incorporating wrestling, No Gi, 10Planet, sambo, judo, etc. into their non-standard Jiu Jitsu academy/training? I'll consider myself as the latter.
Hy. Vince!
I wouldn’t say we teach „strictly“ Gracie Selfdefense, but it is definitely an important part of my Coaches Curriculum (coming from Royce Gracie lineage) and I learn and teach it, but there is also lots of Clinchwork, wrestling and takedowns/ throws in our curriculum. It is more „old school“ and top game/ pressure oriented. But my Coach let me teach what I learned from other Coaches, too! Like what you taught us, what we learned from Mark Picton and Paul Cole, what I learned at ISR Matrix. Nice to read of you Vince, as we know us personally and trained together on various occasions! Greetings, Mirco
I wouldn’t say we teach „strictly“ Gracie Selfdefense, but it is definitely an important part of my Coaches Curriculum (coming from Royce Gracie lineage) and I learn and teach it, but there is also lots of Clinchwork, wrestling and takedowns/ throws in our curriculum. It is more „old school“ and top game/ pressure oriented. But my Coach let me teach what I learned from other Coaches, too! Like what you taught us, what we learned from Mark Picton and Paul Cole, what I learned at ISR Matrix. Nice to read of you Vince, as we know us personally and trained together on various occasions! Greetings, Mirco
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Our curriculum is hybridized and non-traditional. I incorporate a lot of material from my Judo, Jeet Kune Do, and MMA training into my Jiu-Jitsu classes. I follow Bruce Lee's philosophy of "using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation."
Edited 3 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I teach and practice the Gracie Self Defense and Fundamentals. Striking is part of the curriculum as well. (Punches, elbows, kicks headbutts and knees)
I do not eliminate stuff I just add the more modern bjj, no gi or "hybridized" stuff.
People choose what works best for them.
It is my job to present the material not expect them to be carbon copies of me or Royler.
Everyone is different and I like that.
I do not eliminate stuff I just add the more modern bjj, no gi or "hybridized" stuff.
People choose what works best for them.
It is my job to present the material not expect them to be carbon copies of me or Royler.
Everyone is different and I like that.
MBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I teach and practice the Gracie Self Defense and Fundamentals. Striking is part of the curriculum as well. (Punches, elbows, kicks headbutts and knees) I do not eliminate stuff I just add the more modern bjj, no gi or 'hybridized' stuff. People choose what works best for them. It is my job to present the material not expect them to be carbon copies of me or Royler. Everyone is different and I like that.
Well written! Same here. Can’t think of leaving out strikes and dealing with strikes as LEO…it’s part of the curriculum and our Jiu Jitsu approach.
BVBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
We dont practise the gracie curriculum. Though our classes are a mix of old school and new school.
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I was curious to see how many people/coaches in particular on here consider themselves to be strictly following the Gracie curriculum: no deviation or changes, 100% 'traditional' Gracie like the Valente Bros, or modern hybrid, incorporating wrestling, No Gi, 10Planet, sambo, judo, etc. into their non-standard Jiu Jitsu academy/training? I'll consider myself as the latter.
I'm not sure if I understand all these terms.
Probably safe for me to answer "no", based on the obvious fact that I have no idea what's being discussed.
Maybe some help with some definitions of terms, if only to understand better:
1) What's the Gracie curriculum? Is there just one? My understanding is that there are/were several people from this family, and many have/had very different opinions from each other. You mention the Valente brothers. Are they the ones with this curriculum?
2) What's a "hybrid"? Are there any bjj programs out there that teach zero techniques which originally stem from wrestling, judo, "no gi", etc?
Sorry to sound stupid, but maybe I don't understand the question?
Probably safe for me to answer "no", based on the obvious fact that I have no idea what's being discussed.
Maybe some help with some definitions of terms, if only to understand better:
1) What's the Gracie curriculum? Is there just one? My understanding is that there are/were several people from this family, and many have/had very different opinions from each other. You mention the Valente brothers. Are they the ones with this curriculum?
2) What's a "hybrid"? Are there any bjj programs out there that teach zero techniques which originally stem from wrestling, judo, "no gi", etc?
Sorry to sound stupid, but maybe I don't understand the question?
SEPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Both when I train and teach I add stuff from gracie 10th planet and more. If I see a tecnique that looks good online I try it out. Don't care where it's from.
Heck my best competition submission yet was a "Hinduiliotine" that's a 10th planet tecnique and I did it in a Gi turnament.
Heck my best competition submission yet was a "Hinduiliotine" that's a 10th planet tecnique and I did it in a Gi turnament.
KOBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Our school is a hybrid. Some of the Gracie techniques are unrealistic anyway. We do teach some of the stuff, but shy away from the weapons defense.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm not sure if I understand all these terms. Probably safe for me to answer 'no', based on the obvious fact that I have no idea what's being discussed. Maybe some help with some definitions of terms, if only to understand better: 1) What's the Gracie curriculum? Is there just one? My understanding is that there are/were several people from this family, and many have/had very different opinions from each other. You mention the Valente brothers. Are they the ones with this curriculum? 2) What's a 'hybrid'? Are there any bjj programs out there that teach zero techniques which originally stem from wrestling, judo, 'no gi', etc? Sorry to sound stupid, but maybe I don't understand the question?
It's probably my failure in phrasing such an open ended question using loose terminology.
I ask as I notice some black belts using the blue bar to denote the Royce lineage, now I also see Carlos Machado using the green bar to identify his lineage/affiliation so it got me thinking if there were coaches who can confidently say they coach at least 90% of the same material taught to them that they advocate in their classes with little to no deviation from what they were taught, and if so, do they consider themselves coaching the 'authentic' Gracie material (if they are from a Gracie lineage) and I can only think of the Valente Bros who have continuously maintained that they only use the same material as taught to them by Helio Gracie, hence the 'pure waters' term (not meant in any sarcastic way), or whether they 'adopt and adapt' from whatever source of grappling (and related) to their students.
I ask as I notice some black belts using the blue bar to denote the Royce lineage, now I also see Carlos Machado using the green bar to identify his lineage/affiliation so it got me thinking if there were coaches who can confidently say they coach at least 90% of the same material taught to them that they advocate in their classes with little to no deviation from what they were taught, and if so, do they consider themselves coaching the 'authentic' Gracie material (if they are from a Gracie lineage) and I can only think of the Valente Bros who have continuously maintained that they only use the same material as taught to them by Helio Gracie, hence the 'pure waters' term (not meant in any sarcastic way), or whether they 'adopt and adapt' from whatever source of grappling (and related) to their students.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Pure waters???
I thought the idea of BJJ was to do what works. Otherwise why did they change Judo?
Why did the add techniques like the Kimura and triangle when they encountered them?
I thought the idea of BJJ was to do what works. Otherwise why did they change Judo?
Why did the add techniques like the Kimura and triangle when they encountered them?
SEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Well, they didn’ t change Judo, they developed Judo from an early point in another direction. And as well they encountered gyaku ude garami (aka „Kimura“) and sankaku jime (aka „Triangle choke“) …..as You definitely know….🤔🤭…
-So stop trolling us, You evil guy!😂
-So stop trolling us, You evil guy!😂
Edited 3 year(s) ago
DBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Pure waters??? I thought the idea of BJJ was to do what works. Otherwise why did they change Judo? Why did the add techniques like the Kimura and triangle when they encountered them?
Pure waters as in the holy water obtained upon washing Helio Gracie's feet. Those who have not bathed in it, cannot learn real jiu jitsu, and are also less prone to nasty skin problems.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Pure waters as in the holy water obtained upon washing Helio Gracie's feet. Those who have not bathed in it, cannot learn real jiu jitsu, and are also less prone to nasty skin problems.
I forgot the Holy Helio water
TPBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
We practice mostly effective sport jiujitsu with quite minimal self defense leanings during our introductory/beginner's courses (dealing with the headlock etc.).
I often wear a hoodie with Helio's face when teaching the beginners, and I don't think even most of our blue belts know who that is. :)
One of our black belts is a jiujitsu and martial arts history nut, and used to teach a specific self defence BJJ class on the weekends, basically carrying Helio's big book and teaching stuff directly from there. I liked to participate mostly out of educational curiosity. A lot of people found the techniques quite amusing, as it did cover the various weapon disarms etc. (The class wasn't hugely popular, as most just want to get a good workout and roll.)
I often wear a hoodie with Helio's face when teaching the beginners, and I don't think even most of our blue belts know who that is. :)
One of our black belts is a jiujitsu and martial arts history nut, and used to teach a specific self defence BJJ class on the weekends, basically carrying Helio's big book and teaching stuff directly from there. I liked to participate mostly out of educational curiosity. A lot of people found the techniques quite amusing, as it did cover the various weapon disarms etc. (The class wasn't hugely popular, as most just want to get a good workout and roll.)
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
We teach what works. Our beginners curriculum is very MMA-centric, which is also good enough for self defense. Don't care about the Gracies at all.
Our advanced classes focus on the fun part, which is rolling on the ground in pajamas/tights with sweaty people.
I teach potato bullshit.
Our advanced classes focus on the fun part, which is rolling on the ground in pajamas/tights with sweaty people.
I teach potato bullshit.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Don't be another brick in the wall 😉
To learn i had to find sources, like book, VHS or DVD's, so i wasn't in position to get the purification you talk about😁
But i'm happy this way, it feel beter to me, i'm more a leader than a follower.
To learn i had to find sources, like book, VHS or DVD's, so i wasn't in position to get the purification you talk about😁
But i'm happy this way, it feel beter to me, i'm more a leader than a follower.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Agreed. Out here where I'm based I was pretty isolated from any access to an in-person coach and had to rely on books, videos, DVDs and the occasional workshop/seminar that swung by once a year if I was lucky and the cost wasn't too high but that's not the point of this post. I was just curious to see how many coaches on Beltchecker who continued a strictly Gracie curriculum and how many didn't consider themselves in that category out of curiosity. Not putting any value judgement and more power to you which ever path you have chosen for yourself.
How many people would categorise 10-Planet Jiu JItsu under the BJJ banner and would you think it is a separate entity and should be considered an outlier or think it's a subset of what we already do?
How many people would categorise 10-Planet Jiu JItsu under the BJJ banner and would you think it is a separate entity and should be considered an outlier or think it's a subset of what we already do?
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
It's all jiu-jitsu. I got my 10P rank like five years ago, straight to brown because I was already a brown belt in BJJ at the time. Allthough, if I got a black belt in BJJ now, I'd still be a brown belt in 10P and vice versa.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I am sorry but my personal belief is the minute you close off and start ignoring new input in a martial art is the minute the art starts to die. As time changes and new inputs and experiences come up you need to go back to your combat base (initial principles) and develop strategies and techniques to deal with the new variables otherwise you begin to become irrelevant.
It's funny the Gracies actually proved this theory yet are insisting on running headlong into it themselves
It's funny the Gracies actually proved this theory yet are insisting on running headlong into it themselves
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Why would one other than being specifically interested in preserving some (cultural?) heritage?
And if this is the reason, are people explicit about it to new joiners?
And if this is the reason, are people explicit about it to new joiners?
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I don't know and personally I have reservations about attaching, eg. traditional Japanese etiquette in a BJJ academy as is popular with some associations now. I've done my share of that for over 2 decades and don't see the relevance of it's inclusion in a non-Japanese environment. Ok if you are living and training in Japan but I think inappropriate elsewhere.
In this vein I was interested if this extended into and how much this influences their coaching/curriculum and whether they perceived themselves as 'torch bearers of that tradition and lineaged - unadulterated and 'pure" or at the polar extreme of the modern hybrid where you adapt and fit into your environment, do and adopt, tweak, change, add whatever works best for you and your students.
In this vein I was interested if this extended into and how much this influences their coaching/curriculum and whether they perceived themselves as 'torch bearers of that tradition and lineaged - unadulterated and 'pure" or at the polar extreme of the modern hybrid where you adapt and fit into your environment, do and adopt, tweak, change, add whatever works best for you and your students.
