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verification standards at beltchecker
3 year(s) ago • 1611 views • 40 replies
SEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think it could be an interesting discussion to ask for verification standards.
I would start with some widely undisputed points:
- lineage
- curriculum vitae in BJJ
- time spent in the BJJ scene at all
- promoted by instructor someone here knows
- spoken for by trustworthy BB
But what about things like instructor of promoting instructor did some criminal stuff?
Beeing part of a team, which is in bad discussions because of criminal behaviour or something like that like sexual harrassment and so on (for example Lloyd Irvin)?
Is that a „no go“ for voting in our community?
Do we have some kind of moral standards here?
It is an interesting point, not at least because we have two actual cases of verfication process, where different votes (down and up) happened because of points which do not have a direct connection to the qualification of the guys claiming to get verified.
I think it is o.k. do downvote from an individual pov (but accepting the majority vote if it is a verification).
But is that common sense or do we need a kind of moral integrity - standard?
I would start with some widely undisputed points:
- lineage
- curriculum vitae in BJJ
- time spent in the BJJ scene at all
- promoted by instructor someone here knows
- spoken for by trustworthy BB
But what about things like instructor of promoting instructor did some criminal stuff?
Beeing part of a team, which is in bad discussions because of criminal behaviour or something like that like sexual harrassment and so on (for example Lloyd Irvin)?
Is that a „no go“ for voting in our community?
Do we have some kind of moral standards here?
It is an interesting point, not at least because we have two actual cases of verfication process, where different votes (down and up) happened because of points which do not have a direct connection to the qualification of the guys claiming to get verified.
I think it is o.k. do downvote from an individual pov (but accepting the majority vote if it is a verification).
But is that common sense or do we need a kind of moral integrity - standard?
Edited 3 year(s) ago
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I need some time to process the ethics and morality of these hard questions.
Personally though, I explicitly do not support Moya Brand for the owner/founder's checkered history and I'm surprised not more people know about it. Some might not care and most don't know about it I guess.
On this matter, is Beltchecker for solely for validating belts or also attaching ethics/morals and associated links to people of questionable character, separated by 1-2 or more degrees?
Personally though, I explicitly do not support Moya Brand for the owner/founder's checkered history and I'm surprised not more people know about it. Some might not care and most don't know about it I guess.
On this matter, is Beltchecker for solely for validating belts or also attaching ethics/morals and associated links to people of questionable character, separated by 1-2 or more degrees?
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
time in the circus at all
I'm glad someone is finally willing to consider all the time and effort that was invested on my part as the bearded lady.
TRBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I need some time to process the ethics and morality of these hard questions. Personally though, I explicitly do not support Moya Brand for the owner/founder's checkered history and I'm surprised not more people know about it. Some might not care and most don't know about it I guess. On this matter, is Beltchecker for solely for validating belts or also attaching ethics/morals and associated links to people of questionable character, separated by 1-2 or more degrees?
What is up with Moya brand? Never heard that so could you elaborate?
Edited 3 year(s) ago
SEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm glad someone is finally willing to consider all the time and effort that was invested on my part as the bearded lady.
o.k., professor Mc Masters, I am gonna be more precise! -Maybe little mistakes like these would not happen, if I were a native speaker….😂
SEBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
What is up with Moya brand? Never heard that so could you elaborate?
https://www.justice.gov/a[...]t-560.html
I think that is, what Vince is talking about.
Jesse Moya is the founder of Moya brand, as I believe.
I think that is, what Vince is talking about.
Jesse Moya is the founder of Moya brand, as I believe.
Edited 3 year(s) ago
TRBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
https://www.justice.gov/a[...]t-560.html
Wow. And he only got 30 months of jail time. Seems too low for that kind of crime.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
We are voting on belts not peoples personal character from what I understand.
I try not to enforce morals on here as it is not my place to police people .
With that in mind, I either vote or do not vote.
If I feel that the person is of questionable morals, ethics or have a criminal background, and it bothers me, I just take a pass on voting.
My 2 cents on the subject
I try not to enforce morals on here as it is not my place to police people .
With that in mind, I either vote or do not vote.
If I feel that the person is of questionable morals, ethics or have a criminal background, and it bothers me, I just take a pass on voting.
My 2 cents on the subject
Edited 3 year(s) ago
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
We are voting on belts not peoples personal character from what I understand. I try not to enforce morals on here as it is not my place to police people . With that in mind, I either vote or do not vote. If I feel that the person is of questionable morals, ethics or have a criminal background, and it bothers me, I just take a pass on voting. My 2 cents on the subject
Word
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
We are voting on belts not peoples personal character from what I understand. I try not to enforce morals on here as it is not my place to police people .
I agree. If Lloyd Irvin were on here, I'd still vote to verify. Cyborg is another prominent figure who has made some questionable calls in the past, but in the end, these guys are still legit bb's.
Dean Lister has said he won't promote a dickhead to brown belt: https://www.bjjee.com/art[...]e-dckhead/
I agree with him.
To begin with, the vibe at our gym is such that it repels dickheads, but that being said, some of these guys can slip past our defenses and train with us anyway.
I think someone with questionable character would be lucky to get a purple belt from me.
However, if they otherwise go through all the appropriate channels of promotion, I'd definitely still vote to verify.
Dean Lister has said he won't promote a dickhead to brown belt: https://www.bjjee.com/art[...]e-dckhead/
I agree with him.
To begin with, the vibe at our gym is such that it repels dickheads, but that being said, some of these guys can slip past our defenses and train with us anyway.
I think someone with questionable character would be lucky to get a purple belt from me.
However, if they otherwise go through all the appropriate channels of promotion, I'd definitely still vote to verify.
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
If there is something I don’t agree about someone who was legitimately promoted, I just don’t vote for them. Disputing that person wouldn’t make sense as it is known that they earned their rank.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
If there is something I don’t agree about someone who was legitimately promoted, I just don’t vote for them. Disputing that person wouldn’t make sense as it is known that they earned their rank.
Attacking them makes less sense.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I'm from a budo background, where conduct and values are very important and also in BJJ, I've been taught that personal qualities matter in promotions. Far from all schools agree.
When it comes to promoting instructors, I think there sometimes needs to be a healthy degree of remedy along the lineage, as not to legitimize or help "immortalize" bad seeds through cemented lineages which might be passed on for longer than we ourselves are around.
In some cases, I think the lineage can be "mended", through putting things into context and taking a clear and explicit stand (as e.g. Fredson Paixao himself could have done) on what's acceptable and not. Good to be transparent in the process. In other cases, I think the lineage would be better off replaced all together and put on the scrap heap instead of being passed on.
Raises interesting questions too on what your lineage is and to what extent you could deside that for yourself. Standard seems to be the lineage through who promoted you to BB, even if only a temporary acquaintance. Especially if who really developed you up to that level was not BB+2 him or herself. What if you feel you've developed more after receiving BB than the time up to BB? Lineage is up to negotiation and community acceptance I'd say, where I personally would very much take into account if there was a tarnished lineage to handle.
On Beltchecker, I usually don't downvote if a member touches on the subject him or herself and clearly wants to dissociate from the amoral instructor. While I have been known to downvote on instances where the issue is not adressed or is handled as unproblematic.
When it comes to promoting instructors, I think there sometimes needs to be a healthy degree of remedy along the lineage, as not to legitimize or help "immortalize" bad seeds through cemented lineages which might be passed on for longer than we ourselves are around.
In some cases, I think the lineage can be "mended", through putting things into context and taking a clear and explicit stand (as e.g. Fredson Paixao himself could have done) on what's acceptable and not. Good to be transparent in the process. In other cases, I think the lineage would be better off replaced all together and put on the scrap heap instead of being passed on.
Raises interesting questions too on what your lineage is and to what extent you could deside that for yourself. Standard seems to be the lineage through who promoted you to BB, even if only a temporary acquaintance. Especially if who really developed you up to that level was not BB+2 him or herself. What if you feel you've developed more after receiving BB than the time up to BB? Lineage is up to negotiation and community acceptance I'd say, where I personally would very much take into account if there was a tarnished lineage to handle.
On Beltchecker, I usually don't downvote if a member touches on the subject him or herself and clearly wants to dissociate from the amoral instructor. While I have been known to downvote on instances where the issue is not adressed or is handled as unproblematic.
ADBrown beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Would you downvote Helio for all the mistresses and kids from outside of his marriage? Not saying ethics shouldn't be in your personal criteria, however if people our gyms are in some way linked to gets involved, we are all screwed.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
The purpose of this site is to check belts with evidences.
I know a lot of assholes who are Black belts, they are legit and must be recognize for it (the black belt i mean).
I don't think i will go on hollydays with them, that's it.
I know a lot of assholes who are Black belts, they are legit and must be recognize for it (the black belt i mean).
I don't think i will go on hollydays with them, that's it.
JABlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think the Original Posters question is valid, and one of the reasons I quite like beltchecker, is that the framework is such that if some folks want to just vote on belt legitimacy based on provided evidence / social media, awesome...
if others want to go into the character of someone, that is valid as well...
If even others vote based on spiffy gi's, I mean, go for it...
I personally look at just the evidence and make my decision, but I certainly understand others and what they want to do... To each their own in my opinion..
if others want to go into the character of someone, that is valid as well...
If even others vote based on spiffy gi's, I mean, go for it...
I personally look at just the evidence and make my decision, but I certainly understand others and what they want to do... To each their own in my opinion..
ARBlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think the Original Posters question is valid, and one of the reasons I quite like beltchecker, is that the framework is such that if some folks want to just vote on belt legitimacy based on provided evidence / social media, awesome... if others want to go into the character of someone, that is valid as well... If even others vote based on spiffy gi's, I mean, go for it... I personally look at just the evidence and make my decision, but I certainly understand others and what they want to do... To each their own in my opinion..
Meh. You're either legitimately the rank you claim, or you're not. Cuntiness is irrelevant. If you think it is, don't vote.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
I think the Original Posters question is valid, and one of the reasons I quite like beltchecker, is that the framework is such that if some folks want to just vote on belt legitimacy based on provided evidence / social media, awesome... if others want to go into the character of someone, that is valid as well... If even others vote based on spiffy gi's, I mean, go for it... I personally look at just the evidence and make my decision, but I certainly understand others and what they want to do... To each their own in my opinion..
Don't go too far into someone ....character...or at least ask them first because otherwise you will probably fall into the class of people we talk about.😅
Edited 3 year(s) ago
JABlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Don't go too far into someone ....character...or at least ask them first because otherwise you will probably fall into the class of people we talk about.😅
Exactly, but I also understand folks are all different and want different things. I'm of the opinion that this is to verify bjj rank and that's about it. and to get neat doohickies on my profile pic and icons LOL
JBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
There are different levels of bad character, just as there are different levels of bad technique. In general, I trust the judgement on both of a promoting instructor with solid and proved lineage. When it comes to technique, it's more or less a matter of what you see is what you get. There won't be large technique gaps which show only after several years. General character also will be wellknown over the years.
Not least some Gracies have displayed thugish behaviour from time to time (Helio, Renzo etc.), which might be far from good character but still not bad enough for anyone(?) on Beltchecker to hypothetically downvote them.
However, there's oceans of difference between this and e.g. sex offenders targeting students, e.g. (allegedly) Lloyd Irvin or Seth Sykes. Perhaps also De La Riva (I'm not initiated enough in that one). Where it has often come as a surprise even to close students and perhaps not even in line with their previously perceived general character.
Not least some Gracies have displayed thugish behaviour from time to time (Helio, Renzo etc.), which might be far from good character but still not bad enough for anyone(?) on Beltchecker to hypothetically downvote them.
However, there's oceans of difference between this and e.g. sex offenders targeting students, e.g. (allegedly) Lloyd Irvin or Seth Sykes. Perhaps also De La Riva (I'm not initiated enough in that one). Where it has often come as a surprise even to close students and perhaps not even in line with their previously perceived general character.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
While these are valid points, I believe the intention of this site is still 'Beltchecker' and not 'Characterchecker'.
I remain unconvinced whether this peer rank recognition site should include personality- character- past history - personal association to sinister characters or incompatible personality.
These ethical questions can dive into deep rabbit hole, ie. if said person is 'bad' they could be still be a highly legit skilled black belt but possess an abrasive personality, abusive, lies, steals, associates with criminals, etc. I doubt these types would regard little value on our votes on this platform or even appear here (but it's possible). Up vote, Down vote, no vote then? I would not vote knowing the above information and let the problem resolve itself and the person leaves this platform.
Given the democratic nature here, proof of guilt/crime can help the decision making so in conclusion innocent until proven guilty on the crime front and if the provided evidence points to a legit black belt then an upvote is valid.
I remain unconvinced whether this peer rank recognition site should include personality- character- past history - personal association to sinister characters or incompatible personality.
These ethical questions can dive into deep rabbit hole, ie. if said person is 'bad' they could be still be a highly legit skilled black belt but possess an abrasive personality, abusive, lies, steals, associates with criminals, etc. I doubt these types would regard little value on our votes on this platform or even appear here (but it's possible). Up vote, Down vote, no vote then? I would not vote knowing the above information and let the problem resolve itself and the person leaves this platform.
Given the democratic nature here, proof of guilt/crime can help the decision making so in conclusion innocent until proven guilty on the crime front and if the provided evidence points to a legit black belt then an upvote is valid.
JABlack beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
Who needs doohickies when you could have thingamabobs?
Exactly! Moderators, give this man a wigamajig!
BMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
One of the few things I like about the ibjjf certification, as well as my various usa judo certifications, is that you have to pass a background check, as well as pass a course with safesport (a non-profit organization that basically tells you how to avoid exploitation of children and other vulnerable groups of people at your gym).
I hope that maybe we can get something similar here one day when we get our rank certified (i.e. certificate manually verified or whatever) on beltchecker.
I hope that maybe we can get something similar here one day when we get our rank certified (i.e. certificate manually verified or whatever) on beltchecker.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
Who needs doohickies when you could have thingamabobs?
thingamajigs are sometimes good too!
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
One of the few things I like about the ibjjf certification, as well as my various usa judo certifications, is that you have to pass a background check, as well as pass a course with safesport (a non-profit organization that basically tells you how to avoid exploitation of children and other vulnerable groups of people at your gym). I hope that maybe we can get something similar here one day when we get our rank certified (i.e. certificate manually verified or whatever) on beltchecker.
even with Safe Sport and similar checks IBJJF still have sinister people on their roster. I can also think of the case with Rickson Gracie, Gracie Barra groups having problems with a couple of individuals of questionable or outright bad characters and I think with sufficient exposure and pressure they get removed from the organizations but does that stop them from still actively doing what they were doing under a different guise and organization?
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
It's maybe time for
Goodbehaviorchecker.com
Some people go way too far, i don't work in law enforcement and i don't want to. Just my opinion.
Goodbehaviorchecker.com
Some people go way too far, i don't work in law enforcement and i don't want to. Just my opinion.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
It's maybe time for Goodbehaviorchecker.com Some people go way too far, i don't work in law enforcement and i don't want to. Just my opinion.
China is already doing this with their social credit system. Be careful what you wish for
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
3 year(s) ago
China is already doing this with their social credit system. Be careful what you wish for
It was a joke 😅
MGPurple beltVerified
3 year(s) ago
i don't work in law enforcement and i don't want to. Just my opinion.
I work in law enforcement and I don’t want to too.
