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Is fundamental Jiujitsu lost

2 year(s) ago • 24615 views • 26 replies

James Bennett
James Bennett
Black belt 1st degreeVerified5 forum posts2320/1000
2 year(s) ago
I just went the Orlando ADCC open. First let me say, I saw a lot of really good Jiujitsu. Normally you’ll see some competitors that are lacking fundamentally in Jiujitsu and throwing up high risk/low percentage submissions, I noticed this weekend, there is a lot more of that happening. When you looked a little closer, it was either poor wrestling and takedowns or butt scooting and leg lock attempts. Which is all fine to do, but when those attempts fail or stuffed, you need good fundamentals to get you out of those bad positions.
Curious of everyone’s thoughts.
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Sebastian Ellinghaus
Black belt 1st degreeVerified599 forum posts34785/1000
2 year(s) ago
All that fancy hot and „100%-effective“ stuff is nothing without fundamentals.
My main argument in all that discussions has always only 2 words:
Roger Gracie
Philip Dunlap
Philip Dunlap
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1043 forum posts59560/1000
2 year(s) ago
Fundamentals will never really be "lost" solid fundamentals do shut down most attacks and will always be relevant no matter the direction the game heads,,

Look at Gordon Ryan he is kind of a poster boy for the "new school" but has great fundamentals at the same time.
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
2 year(s) ago
Fundamentals never disappear, they get 'rediscovered'. Whack on a new package, put out some marketing about it being a magic silver bullet, voila. I've seen it happen a few times and I've only been grappling for 20 years: I'm sure some of the 30 year plus veterans on here have seen many cycles.

Not that this is a necessarily a bad thing. Repackaging can be really good, especially when it is somebody like Priit, for example. While I don't find it all that easy to pick up what he's trying to teach in a class (takes me multiple goes), he does a great job of building up systems taken from various sources. Eddie Bravo did a good job of that too, in terms of his half guard game at the start of the old Mastering the Rubber Guard book (the only part I still find useful).
Jody
Jody
Black belt 1st degreeVerified13 forum posts1465/1000
2 year(s) ago
I teach a fundamentals class every Sunday. I don't think they ever go out of style and will always be at the core of BJJ for self-defense, if nothing else. Using your ADCC observations as an example... In that arena, where stomping someone in the face or driving your knee into their sternum as a strike is not the appropriate method of preventing a foot/leg attack, fundamentals may not be considered critical concepts.
James Jones
James Jones
Black beltVerified1309 forum posts6475/1000
2 year(s) ago
If you want to see more fundamentals watch Gi.

Yea sure there's some dumb lasso guard stuff but it's not just a leg lock fest of trying to get underneath people.

The Gi makes it harder for people to just twirl their way out of bad positions.

So many MMA fights where I have seen people land a heel hook rip their opponents knee and still get knocked out and lose the fight.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Christian Graugart
Christian Graugart
Black belt 4th degreeVerified4323 forum posts39320/1000
2 year(s) ago
These guys are just playing the game within the ruleset, can’t really blame them for that. MMA is the real Jiu Jitsu anyway and we basically don’t see anything but solid fundamentals there, so all is in order imo 😄
Bobby McMasters
Bobby McMasters
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1272 forum posts12800/1000
2 year(s) ago
MMA is the real Jiu Jitsu anyway and we basically don’t see anything but solid fundamentals there, so all is in order imo 😄
I don't completely agree.

The modern BJJ era reminds me of when Superman "died", I want to say sometime in the mid-to-late 90's. This was a big deal at the time, not just among comic book nerds and teenagers. Let me explain:

When Superman "died", his spirit, or something, I don't remember completely (this is going on a 25+yr memory) split into multiple versions of Superman: there was "Man of Steel", who was like a robot Superman or something, and there was even an "evil" Superman, from what I recall.

This concept is analogous to bjj, as the "true" BJJ we know from the storybooks has, in a sense, "died", as times have changed, to say the least. What we have now is various versions of the same thing.

MMA, like sport BJJ, is also just a gamified version of a street fight/ self-defense situation, and comes with its own limitations, although a very good case could be made that MMA is as close to the real deal that we can get, without overstepping certain legal and ethical boundaries.

But in the end, MMA, sport BJJ, theoretical self-defense BJJ, nogi etc are all just post-mortem interpretations of something doesn't exist in its same form anymore.

Thanks for reading my stoner thoughts story, and hope everyone has a great day.
Philip Dunlap
Philip Dunlap
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1043 forum posts59560/1000
2 year(s) ago
I am sorry but what exactly is "true" BJJ ..

As far as I have seen it is Gi BJJ that built it's reputation on sports fighting both in Brazil and the US.

As someone who has trained a lot of striking and weapons I have always found Gracie self defense laughable
André Prins
André Prins
Black belt 1st degreeVerified30 forum posts4010/1000
2 year(s) ago
This is a fascinating topic. I recently had a similar conversation with another black belt, and we tend to agree that many modern schools like playing from tactically inferior positions. Competition rules allow dangerous habits and positions to become more safe and effective to use. If you just train BJJ for sport, that is fine, but for MMA and self defense it can become problematic. I believe that any good practitioner should have a solid understanding of striking ,wrestling and takedowns. You can't expect a police officer to butt scoot towards a criminal after all. Maintaining top position and successfully submitting lower belts from there is imperative.

Most people on this forum probably train all of this anyway, but I have seen a number of gyms that ignore these aspects completely. That said, most schools that do really well in competitions, do train the fundamentals quite a bit.
Slideyfoot [jun]
Slideyfoot [jun]
Black belt 1st degreeVerified1900 forum posts3635/1000
2 year(s) ago
should have a solid understanding of striking ,wrestling and takedowns. [...] Most people on this forum probably train all of this anyway
I would be curious to know the stats. I would be surprised if most BJJ clubs trained striking. I'm aware some do, but I assumed it's a fairly niche thing in BJJ these days.

I certainly never bother. I was very happy to give up being punched in the face and kicked in the shins a good 16 years or so ago, when I quit the striking style I did before BJJ.
James Jones
James Jones
Black beltVerified1309 forum posts6475/1000
2 year(s) ago
I don't train jiujitsu for self defense but I refuse to put myself in positions where I can't easily stand up.

When I play a guard or attack a submission I'm almost always in a position where I can stand up if I want. If I don't have the option to stand up I'm not happy.
Kurt Wuckert Jr
Kurt Wuckert Jr
Black beltVerified27 forum posts2135/1000
2 year(s) ago
There isn’t a single champion at any level that matters who doesn’t have rock solid fundamentals. You can get away with being tricky, strong or highly specialized from white to purple, but after a certain point, high level general understanding of Jiu-Jitsu is what matters.
Jim
Jim
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified346 forum posts3755/1000
2 year(s) ago
Good question, James. I often wonder if I’m practicing the same art as most of these top-level competitors. :)

Among the BJJ practitioners over the age of 40, I think fundamental Jiu-Jitsu is still very popular because it works for everybody regardless of athleticism. The older you get, the more you rely on the fundamentals. The young competitors are always on the lookout for new technology to outsmart their opponents, and I’m always interested to see the creative contributions they make to the competitive arms race. However, as a hobbyist who typically rolls with younger, stronger opponents (since I coach a college club), I stick to the basics: don’t get hit, dominate the grips, throw so that I land in the top position, and secure a tried-but-true submission like an Americana or a cross-choke. I might not be able to win ADCC, but I’m pushing 50 and still training after multiple serious injuries. :)
Matt Meyer
Matt Meyer
Black belt 1st degreeVerified32 forum posts1620/1000
2 year(s) ago
My heart breaks for Jiu Jitsu. Christian Graugart is absolutely correct, when he says they are playing within the rule set. Schools now primarily focus on that ruleset, to the detriment to the students.

There are somethings that Martial Arts rule sets do to make their art weaker, and actual help get you beat up in a real fight. BJJ is now one of those arts. Teaching and actively rewarding the butt flop, not controlling the head in guard, etc, these are all ways to get your ass very kicked.

I used to provide arguments to the trolls that would say BJJ is not street effective, however, now looking at the state of BJJ and how it is taught for the tournaments, I have become one of those people.
Philip Dunlap
Philip Dunlap
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified1043 forum posts59560/1000
2 year(s) ago
I am sorry I believe the day it was decided that BJJ would take the focus to the ground and begin to vary from the Judo Maeda taught was the day it became an art focused on rulesets.

How did Helio react to Faddha's students beating his? Outlaw the move they lost to
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Deepu
Deepu
Black beltVerified547 forum posts6260/1000
2 year(s) ago
Even what we consider fundamental jiu jitsu was created by a rule set. Carlson Gracie rule set in I think the 70s oriented around MMA is what built the fundamental game, takedown, pass, mount, finish. Sweep if taken down, pass, mount, finish. The point structure encourages this. Learnt about this rule set from Robert Drysdale research for Closed Guard.

Around the 33 minute mark is where they talk about this. Whole podcast is actually a great listen.

https://youtu.be/e2ThcGhA[...]amp;t=2001
Edited 2 year(s) ago
Kurt Wuckert Jr
Kurt Wuckert Jr
Black beltVerified27 forum posts2135/1000
2 year(s) ago
My heart breaks for Jiu Jitsu. Christian Graugart is absolutely correct, when he says they are playing within the rule set. Schools now primarily focus on that ruleset, to the detriment to the students. There are somethings that Martial Arts rule sets do to make their art weaker, and actual help get you beat up in a real fight. BJJ is now one of those arts. Teaching and actively rewarding the butt flop, not controlling the head in guard, etc, these are all ways to get your ass very kicked. I used to provide arguments to the trolls that would say BJJ is not street effective, however, now looking at the state of BJJ and how it is taught for the tournaments, I have become one of those people.
This is precisely why Wrestlers are the most likely stylists to be MMA champions. However, I'd also argue that MMA as we know it is technically just a divergent branch of BJJ. I don't remember who said it, but either some Japanese master or some American marketing genius pretending he heard it from a Japanese master once said: There are many roads to the top of the mountain, but at the top is just Budo or "the way of combat."

More practically, I start every single class with wrestling takedown entries to warm up, and as everyone gets warm, they turn into take-downs. And we start every round on our feet. We're not throwing punches, but working on the details of good take-downs is a lot more likely to net a pure BJJ practitioner success in a "real" fight.
Anthony Nelson
Anthony Nelson
Black belt 1st degreeVerified489 forum posts10580/1000
2 year(s) ago
Fundamentals never disappear, they get 'rediscovered'. Whack on a new package, put out some marketing about it being a magic silver bullet, voila. I've seen it happen a few times and I've only been grappling for 20 years: I'm sure some of the 30 year plus veterans on here have seen many cycles. Not that this is a necessarily a bad thing. Repackaging can be really good, especially when it is somebody like Priit, for example. While I don't find it all that easy to pick up what he's trying to teach in a class (takes me multiple goes), he does a great job of building up systems taken from various sources. Eddie Bravo did a good job of that too, in terms of his half guard game at the start of the old Mastering the Rubber Guard book (the only part I still find useful).
I totally agree. People look at Henry Akins, and say man he’s a magician. I don’t get it that’s the same stuff we trained when I started in the 90s.. position was 99% of defense. We learned the relationship between space and base. We learned connection and disconnection. It’s always lost and refound you’re totally right.
Mark Gilston
Mark Gilston
Black belt 3rd degreeVerified200 forum posts6335/1000
2 year(s) ago
Schools now primarily focus on that ruleset, to the detriment to the students.
Sadly all too true, and even more so for judo which has become of shadow of it's former efficiency and elegance.
Ethan Hedstrom
Ethan Hedstrom
Black beltVerified78 forum posts11955/1000
2 year(s) ago
As a coach I strive to go over and help teach the fundamentals. The basics are good stepping stone to all the more advanced techniques as it is. I rather students do fundamentals hundreds of times and get it than trying bunch advances moves once and not grasp them. The more they see the more they start linking the moves together and better flow in bjj they have as well. That's exactly what has helped me as well over the years. I'm all for expanding more advanced techniques but can't start running before you know how walk concept.
Jari Anttila
Jari Anttila
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified48 forum posts3690/1000
2 year(s) ago
These guys are just playing the game within the ruleset, can’t really blame them for that. MMA is the real Jiu Jitsu anyway and we basically don’t see anything but solid fundamentals there, so all is in order imo 😄
It's kind of funny to notice how jiu-jitsu went totally into the same direction with sports like judo and karate did. People were bashing them for losing street efficiency, as they lost their original purpose of working in a real fight and focus on ever more limited ruleset.

I've trained jiu-jitsu with strikes and kicks since start, as one of my very first BJJ teachers was Lucio Linhares who became a UFC fighter some years later. Demian Maia was the teacher of some of my teachers and most were training with MMA rules as well as jiu-jitsu rules.

So when people say "jiu-jitsu is grappling with a gi", i feel correcting them "my jiu-jitsu is fighting in a wide array of rulesets which allow ground fighting using positional dominance", but I totally understand other people's interests are elsewhere so jiu-jitsu can be both.

Fundamentals are the things that work in a different array of rulesets, whether it's ADCC, IBJJF, Unified MMA rules etc. I don't have to be a GI specialist to be a jiu-jitsu black belt, and I don't have to be MMA fighter or a No-Gi grappler, but I can be any of those. You can and should test your jiu-jitsu in different rules, it's eye-opening.
Jim
Jim
Black belt 2nd degreeVerified346 forum posts3755/1000
2 year(s) ago
Our everyday BJJ classes have a self-defense emphasis, which means we include strikes, foul tactics, both gi and no-gi training, realistic weapons (gun, knife, and stick), and multiple attacker scenarios. It’s all sparring-based, so it’s essentially vale tudo with a street emphasis rather than the more traditional Gracie self-defense curriculum. When students want to compete in MMA or a grappling tournament, we’ll give them separate training sessions so they can modify their game for the sport. My professor, Burton Richardson, has coached fighters at the highest levels (e.g., UFC and Abu Dhabi), but he prefers to adapt his street game for the sport and not the other way around.

[Let me be clear: I’m not denigrating those who use a different training methodology. This is just an explanation of how we do things in our organization. As the old saying goes, there are many paths up the same mountain.]
Kurt Wuckert Jr
Kurt Wuckert Jr
Black beltVerified27 forum posts2135/1000
2 year(s) ago
Our everyday BJJ classes have a self-defense emphasis, which means we include strikes, foul tactics, both gi and no-gi training, realistic weapons (gun, knife, and stick), and multiple attacker scenarios. It’s all sparring-based, so it’s essentially vale tudo with a street emphasis rather than the more traditional Gracie self-defense curriculum. When students want to compete in MMA or a grappling tournament, we’ll give them separate training sessions so they can modify their game for the sport. My professor, Burton Richardson, has coached fighters at the highest levels (e.g., UFC and Abu Dhabi), but he prefers to adapt his street game for the sport and not the other way around. [Let me be clear: I’m not denigrating those who use a different training methodology. This is just an explanation of how we do things in our organization. As the old saying goes, there are many paths up the same mountain.]
Plus, it's just fun to train that way at least some of the time!

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