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Behavior based voting
2 year(s) ago • 10438 views • 21 replies
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
With the revenge downvoting I have noticed that those justifying their downvotes are to a large degree accusing Johan of being on a Jihad and saying it is basically kind of a behavioral vote.
Just curious how people vote on situations. A lot of controversy has swirled over the years around Lloyd Irvin would you downvote or abstain from voting on on profiles of belts he awarded.
How about Rickson Gracie who has had a history of ignoring complaints about sexual predators in his organization
Just curious how people vote on situations. A lot of controversy has swirled over the years around Lloyd Irvin would you downvote or abstain from voting on on profiles of belts he awarded.
How about Rickson Gracie who has had a history of ignoring complaints about sexual predators in his organization
JABlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
You bring a very important point up sir.
I see this a lot in movies with actors that are deemed to be "controversial" or "nutty / out there"
Tom Cruise, Ezra Miller, Gina Carrano etc. (lots of folks who are considered in this vein).
I choose to watch movies or media from lots of folks who I consider to be "out there" or controversial, but I separate the art from the artist. Hell, most movies from them are actually really good and I enjoy them.
I feel this site is called Beltchecker, not Behavior Checker. In my opinion, we are checking the legitimacy of belts and building a community. I separate the folks who I may not wanna hang out with from their belts. If they have real belts in MY opinion, then I'll vote for them to help them and the community out.
Folks who vote differently are free to do so. As for Lloyd Irvin I don't believe anyone could state he isn't a legit Black belt, but he legit has had a ton of controversy swirling around him. But when I met him he seemed very nice and a cool guy.
This is an excellent question to hopefully lead people to look at why they vote the way they vote.
I see this a lot in movies with actors that are deemed to be "controversial" or "nutty / out there"
Tom Cruise, Ezra Miller, Gina Carrano etc. (lots of folks who are considered in this vein).
I choose to watch movies or media from lots of folks who I consider to be "out there" or controversial, but I separate the art from the artist. Hell, most movies from them are actually really good and I enjoy them.
I feel this site is called Beltchecker, not Behavior Checker. In my opinion, we are checking the legitimacy of belts and building a community. I separate the folks who I may not wanna hang out with from their belts. If they have real belts in MY opinion, then I'll vote for them to help them and the community out.
Folks who vote differently are free to do so. As for Lloyd Irvin I don't believe anyone could state he isn't a legit Black belt, but he legit has had a ton of controversy swirling around him. But when I met him he seemed very nice and a cool guy.
This is an excellent question to hopefully lead people to look at why they vote the way they vote.
Edited 2 year(s) ago
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
My personal criteria is very simple. Do I believe you were awarded the belt and do I believe that the person who gave it to you was qualified to assess your level. It is NOT based on if I think you are deserving.
Hell I have belted people I later disassociated with and honestly wish my name was not associated with them but when questioned always
confirm I awarded the belt but they are no longer under my umbrella.
Hell I have belted people I later disassociated with and honestly wish my name was not associated with them but when questioned always
confirm I awarded the belt but they are no longer under my umbrella.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
My votes are based on the evidence provided or whether I have prior knowledge of the person.
I don't know many people on here so I can't attest to their character or whether or not they are a budding serial killer or criminal.
If I get a funny feeling about someone I will just abstain from voting.
If I am not sure about a profile I see how it plays out. Usually someone here sheds light on the profile in question which will either convince me to vote or confirm why I didn't in the first place.
I don't take much of what is going on in Beltchecker too seriously.
It is mainly a way for me to pass the time and possibly make some bjj connections I otherwise would never had made.
There are a few people on here that I will definitely be looking up if ever I am in their areas.
Isn't that one of the bonuses of Beltchecker?
Not here to burn bridges or cause arguments etc.
Life is stressful enough.
I don't know many people on here so I can't attest to their character or whether or not they are a budding serial killer or criminal.
If I get a funny feeling about someone I will just abstain from voting.
If I am not sure about a profile I see how it plays out. Usually someone here sheds light on the profile in question which will either convince me to vote or confirm why I didn't in the first place.
I don't take much of what is going on in Beltchecker too seriously.
It is mainly a way for me to pass the time and possibly make some bjj connections I otherwise would never had made.
There are a few people on here that I will definitely be looking up if ever I am in their areas.
Isn't that one of the bonuses of Beltchecker?
Not here to burn bridges or cause arguments etc.
Life is stressful enough.
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I don’t get into character, just whether the belt was legitimate, or not l, according to my own standards. There are a ton of criminal ass black belts out there. And even more shitty character. I will say I probably wouldn’t up vote somebody that I didn’t like. But if I down vote them and later is shown to be legitimate, I will definitely up vote them even if I don’t like them.
MGBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I do feel that being a decent person should be an adjunct as it reflects upon the discipline. This comes from the judo "jita kyeoi" mutual benefit principle. Sadly it is often far from the case in BJJ (not that it sometimes doesn't show up in judo as well). With that in mind, when I am looking at possibly upvoting a stranger, I look to see if they have thanked the people who previously upvoted them or if they ignored them. I am much more likely to upvote someone who is active in a positive manner in the forums than someone who is virtually invisible. I look at the kind of photos posted, and I always prefer to see a promotion certificate. If I have doubts, I simply do not vote. I would never vote for someone who has insulted others on a forum or made a revenge down vote. I agree with David that Beltchecker is definitely a way to make new friends who would be welcomed at the school or whom I would seek out to train with were I to travel to their area.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
This post really is not about the other ones ie in reference to Johan.
We are doing an endeavor where the majority can’t come up with a consensus of what BJJ is much less what constitutes a black belt.
I am curious to see opinions on behavior as it is important to many
We are doing an endeavor where the majority can’t come up with a consensus of what BJJ is much less what constitutes a black belt.
I am curious to see opinions on behavior as it is important to many
JFBlack beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
If I knew a practitioner was of ill repute or a sexual predator but otherwise has proof of being promoted to a certain rank I would probably abstain from voting rather than down voting. I wouldn’t want to knowingly associate my name with theirs if I could avoid it.
JSPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
If you want behavior based votes then introduce a behavior score and only allow "irreprehensible" individuals to vote (both on belts and behavior). I'd keep the belt score separate.
Having poor social behavior and being unskilled at a sport are two very different things. Poor social behavior is grounds for social punishment, it doesn't however rob the person of their skill, at whatever, and we should be able to still reckon that skill.
Having poor social behavior and being unskilled at a sport are two very different things. Poor social behavior is grounds for social punishment, it doesn't however rob the person of their skill, at whatever, and we should be able to still reckon that skill.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
If you want behavior based votes then introduce a behavior score and only allow 'irreprehensible' individuals to vote (both on belts and behavior). I'd keep the belt score separate. Having poor social behavior and being unskilled at a sport are two very different things. Poor social behavior is grounds for social punishment, it doesn't however rob the person of their skill, at whatever, and we should be able to still reckon that skill.
I joined this site out of curiosity and like David, make connections worldwide I would otherwise not been able to due to my location limitations. I didn't sign up to assess other's behaviour, only for this belt checking/verification context. I can't claim to be a saint and never made any previous mistakes offline and more often than not, give the benefit of doubt, especially online because I'm not the main character in this forum. Hope the community remains focused on the prime directive rather than resort to character assessment/assassination and not devolve into a Lord of the Flies plot.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Please this thread was not meant as another Johan thread.
I actually struggle with this as on one hand behavior and how students represent the school and myself is very important to me but on the other I really don't see how it influences rank;
I have had a couple students who almost seemed to change with advancing rank (inflated ego increasingly negative behavior) and I distanced myself from them.
An example of what I am talking about Marcello Garcia (great teacher awesome guy) Dillon Danis (complete jackass)
Danis is a great grappler and Marcello was forced to throw him out of the school but unfortunately the names are intertwined.
I have recently thought of adding a behavior thing to my ranking as I want students to know that I consider it important but it troubles me that I am being Hypocritical.
AS to the site. I joined because much like social media you can connect with great people you normally wouldn't and make friendships that are based on a strong common bond but just as with social media you are going to have to wade through some odd ones. I love the site
I actually struggle with this as on one hand behavior and how students represent the school and myself is very important to me but on the other I really don't see how it influences rank;
I have had a couple students who almost seemed to change with advancing rank (inflated ego increasingly negative behavior) and I distanced myself from them.
An example of what I am talking about Marcello Garcia (great teacher awesome guy) Dillon Danis (complete jackass)
Danis is a great grappler and Marcello was forced to throw him out of the school but unfortunately the names are intertwined.
I have recently thought of adding a behavior thing to my ranking as I want students to know that I consider it important but it troubles me that I am being Hypocritical.
AS to the site. I joined because much like social media you can connect with great people you normally wouldn't and make friendships that are based on a strong common bond but just as with social media you are going to have to wade through some odd ones. I love the site
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
Please this thread was not meant as another Johan thread. I actually struggle with this as on one hand behavior and how students represent the school and myself is very important to me but on the other I really don't see how it influences rank; I have had a couple students who almost seemed to change with advancing rank (inflated ego increasingly negative behavior) and I distanced myself from them. An example of what I am talking about Marcello Garcia (great teacher awesome guy) Dillon Danis (complete jackass) Danis is a great grappler and Marcello was forced to throw him out of the school but unfortunately the names are intertwined. I have recently thought of adding a behavior thing to my ranking as I want students to know that I consider it important but it troubles me that I am being Hypocritical. AS to the site. I joined because much like social media you can connect with great people you normally wouldn't and make friendships that are based on a strong common bond but just as with social media you are going to have to wade through some odd ones. I love the site
I do this already. I refuse to put a belt on someone if their personality is not going to bring positive favor to my name. I don’t want to affiliate myself with some people. But of course I’m also nonprofit, so it doesn’t matter as much. I can be very picky.
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I do this already. I refuse to put a belt on someone if their personality is not going to bring positive favor to my name. I don’t want to affiliate myself with some people. But of course I’m also nonprofit, so it doesn’t matter as much. I can be very picky.
I am non profit also.. Taught for years in Vegas for free
My issue is that at the end of the day I come from the Burmese arts and we had non of the trappings of many Martial Arts it
was about fighting. Also the more you look into BJJ it was a style developed and promoted on bad behavior so I feel it is
hypocritical but at the end of the day since I give the belt I guess it's what I say it is
My issue is that at the end of the day I come from the Burmese arts and we had non of the trappings of many Martial Arts it
was about fighting. Also the more you look into BJJ it was a style developed and promoted on bad behavior so I feel it is
hypocritical but at the end of the day since I give the belt I guess it's what I say it is
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I have recently thought of adding a behavior thing to my ranking as I want students to know that I consider it important but it troubles me that I am being Hypocritical.
The 753 code that the Valente Bros use makes character part of their evaluation process.
I know everyone will say the Gracies are bullies, criminals and violent offenders (blah blah) but Helio took into account individual character before promoting or granting the teachers certificate.
I believe he only issued 17 teachers ceritifications. Not sure the exact number but it wasn't many.
Most were to his family members.
Nepotism asside, this is how it was done at the original Gracie Academy in Brazil for better or worse.
I know everyone will say the Gracies are bullies, criminals and violent offenders (blah blah) but Helio took into account individual character before promoting or granting the teachers certificate.
I believe he only issued 17 teachers ceritifications. Not sure the exact number but it wasn't many.
Most were to his family members.
Nepotism asside, this is how it was done at the original Gracie Academy in Brazil for better or worse.
BWBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I do this already. I refuse to put a belt on someone if their personality is not going to bring positive favor to my name. I don’t want to affiliate myself with some people. But of course I’m also nonprofit, so it doesn’t matter as much. I can be very picky.
I run a gym that is not a "non-profit" and I am very clear about my criteria not being solely about skill, especially for the upper belts. To some this is a feature and to others its not... though I am a bit suspicious about anyone who thinks that base level character requirements are going to somehow negatively effect their promotions so I don't worry about those as much.
What is nice is that BJJ and its adjacent sports is becoming common enough that if people disagree they can train at a place that aligns with their values more; similar to how belt checker votes with a button click your students vote with their dollars.
Well, not in your case I guess. They vote with their time / opportunity cost then.
For Philip:
I think as long as you are transparent with your students about what you are promoted them based on, and you allow that to be one of the heuristics guiding your decision, then I would advise you go for it. Its my experience that you will feel better about your "product" and the rules of your community, both form and informal, will be more clear and have less disagreements.
Brazilian Jiu jitsu may have originally been a family hobby to fight dudes on the beach, but now its -also- a community oriented sport and as a gym owner I am implicitly responsible for that - in my opinion at least.
I am not even at my main location full time because I live in another state being an economist, and I know that my instructors at my main school have the tools to grow and cultivate the gym not because of BJJ techniques I taught them but because of the culture we have built around learning and fostering growth in others. I bring this up because this was one of the main issues in the Dillon Danis situation and its unclear if the responsible parties even knew they were expected to behave differently - other than by maybe Marcelos example to emulate.
I think that you being happy and genuine with the product you are putting forward makes it more enjoyable for you and so also a better product in the end. To some that may be solely competition ability, and thats good for them. For you though it seems to not be so I would suggest go with it.
What is nice is that BJJ and its adjacent sports is becoming common enough that if people disagree they can train at a place that aligns with their values more; similar to how belt checker votes with a button click your students vote with their dollars.
Well, not in your case I guess. They vote with their time / opportunity cost then.
For Philip:
I think as long as you are transparent with your students about what you are promoted them based on, and you allow that to be one of the heuristics guiding your decision, then I would advise you go for it. Its my experience that you will feel better about your "product" and the rules of your community, both form and informal, will be more clear and have less disagreements.
Brazilian Jiu jitsu may have originally been a family hobby to fight dudes on the beach, but now its -also- a community oriented sport and as a gym owner I am implicitly responsible for that - in my opinion at least.
I am not even at my main location full time because I live in another state being an economist, and I know that my instructors at my main school have the tools to grow and cultivate the gym not because of BJJ techniques I taught them but because of the culture we have built around learning and fostering growth in others. I bring this up because this was one of the main issues in the Dillon Danis situation and its unclear if the responsible parties even knew they were expected to behave differently - other than by maybe Marcelos example to emulate.
I think that you being happy and genuine with the product you are putting forward makes it more enjoyable for you and so also a better product in the end. To some that may be solely competition ability, and thats good for them. For you though it seems to not be so I would suggest go with it.
JSPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
My comment was meant to sound dystopian and connect with the social score that has been implemented in some countries or the cancel culture that has arisen in others. I do maintain my view that behavior shouldn't be grounds for what should be a skill vote.
BWBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
My comment was meant to sound dystopian and connect with the social score that has been implemented in some countries or the cancel culture that has arisen in others. I do maintain my view that behavior shouldn't be grounds for what should be a skill vote.
I will try to give you a counter example.
In jiu jitsu we need to have enough faith in our trainings partners that we believe they will not intentionally hurt us or put is in -unnecessary- danger while in training. If someone was routinely cranking submissions at the gym and either hurting people before they could tap or holding "too long" and injuring them, would you say they should get promoted still? They have the skill. So why not?
As a coach, would you feel comfortable letting that person grapple other people under your watch when part of your responsibility is the safety of your students?
What if one of your students is using meeting people at the gyms for a chance to connect with them outside the gym and sexually harass them and make them uncomfortable, and continually does this to all the new people they meet? Okay, lets say that same person is a world class black belt. Is it okay now to promote them under your name and affiliation or can their behavior be used as grounds to not teach them?
What if you could incentivize a more positive environment by just telling people that there is a behavior or community aspect to promotion, and you could avoid a lot of these issues to begin with and protect your students before they are in bad situations, a garden weeding itself type of situation. Is that a good enough trade off to not awarding some individual a belt that they literally have no "right" to be awarded, so that someone who is a good training partner stays around long enough that -they- get the skill to also be promoted?
In jiu jitsu we need to have enough faith in our trainings partners that we believe they will not intentionally hurt us or put is in -unnecessary- danger while in training. If someone was routinely cranking submissions at the gym and either hurting people before they could tap or holding "too long" and injuring them, would you say they should get promoted still? They have the skill. So why not?
As a coach, would you feel comfortable letting that person grapple other people under your watch when part of your responsibility is the safety of your students?
What if one of your students is using meeting people at the gyms for a chance to connect with them outside the gym and sexually harass them and make them uncomfortable, and continually does this to all the new people they meet? Okay, lets say that same person is a world class black belt. Is it okay now to promote them under your name and affiliation or can their behavior be used as grounds to not teach them?
What if you could incentivize a more positive environment by just telling people that there is a behavior or community aspect to promotion, and you could avoid a lot of these issues to begin with and protect your students before they are in bad situations, a garden weeding itself type of situation. Is that a good enough trade off to not awarding some individual a belt that they literally have no "right" to be awarded, so that someone who is a good training partner stays around long enough that -they- get the skill to also be promoted?
ANBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I am non profit also.. Taught for years in Vegas for free My issue is that at the end of the day I come from the Burmese arts and we had non of the trappings of many Martial Arts it was about fighting. Also the more you look into BJJ it was a style developed and promoted on bad behavior so I feel it is hypocritical but at the end of the day since I give the belt I guess it's what I say it is
i agree. it was. but..... from my side i have seen both. I have the Ralph Gracie side which was pretty damn violent, but i also had mentors like JJ Machado, Henry Akins, John Frankl, Jared Feierabend, and Matt Thorton, who are poineers but also super great people. i guess it just depends on what people you allow to be your mentors and show you what right looks like,
JSPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
I will try to give you a counter example. In jiu jitsu we need to have enough faith in our trainings partners that we believe they will not intentionally hurt us or put is in -unnecessary- danger while in training. If someone was routinely cranking submissions at the gym and either hurting people before they could tap or holding 'too long' and injuring them, would you say they should get promoted still? They have the skill. So why not? As a coach, would you feel comfortable letting that person grapple other people under your watch when part of your responsibility is the safety of your students? What if one of your students is using meeting people at the gyms for a chance to connect with them outside the gym and sexually harass them and make them uncomfortable, and continually does this to all the new people they meet? Okay, lets say that same person is a world class black belt. Is it okay now to promote them under your name and affiliation or can their behavior be used as grounds to not teach them? What if you could incentivize a more positive environment by just telling people that there is a behavior or community aspect to promotion, and you could avoid a lot of these issues to begin with and protect your students before they are in bad situations, a garden weeding itself type of situation. Is that a good enough trade off to not awarding some individual a belt that they literally have no 'right' to be awarded, so that someone who is a good training partner stays around long enough that -they- get the skill to also be promoted?
I don't think what I wrote is an opposite of what you wrote, it is just a different scope. I was answering the title of this thread, voting to verify rank, not to award rank or not.
What you describe to me falls under the bad behavior being socially punished, person is a shitty partner once they should get a talk, twice they should get a warning, thrice they should be kicked out. Or just skip to three if the first behavior was heinous beyond reason. In any case of bad behavior, ranking should not be a priority.
What you describe to me falls under the bad behavior being socially punished, person is a shitty partner once they should get a talk, twice they should get a warning, thrice they should be kicked out. Or just skip to three if the first behavior was heinous beyond reason. In any case of bad behavior, ranking should not be a priority.
BBPurple beltVerified
2 year(s) ago
With the revenge downvoting I have noticed that those justifying their downvotes are to a large degree accusing Johan of being on a Jihad and saying it is basically kind of a behavioral vote. Just curious how people vote on situations. A lot of controversy has swirled over the years around Lloyd Irvin would you downvote or abstain from voting on on profiles of belts he awarded. How about Rickson Gracie who has had a history of ignoring complaints about sexual predators in his organization
I'd hate to be treated differently because my lineage contains someone i've never met.
JBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I’m an ethics professor, so I think a person’s character is an essential part of what it means to hold a certain rank (along with things like fighting ability and technical knowledge). When I promote my students, I aways take character into account. However, that’s my standard for my students, and I know it’s not universal in the BJJ world. It’s also pretty hard for us to check a person’s character on Beltchecker when we verify their belt rank.
I have withdrawn a few votes on Beltchecker when a person’s character was revealed to be problematic, but I have never disputed a rank because of character flaws as long as there was demonstrable evidence to support the legitimacy of that person’s belt (e.g., photos of them clearly receiving the belt from their instructor; clear rank certificates; social media posts made by the instructor; a certification by the promoting instructor who is also on Beltchecker; a list on the promoting instructor’s website of all their blackbelts; etc.). By withdrawing my vote, I’m disassociating myself from the person, but I’m not calling into question the legitimacy of their fighting skills or technical knowledge of the art.
I have withdrawn a few votes on Beltchecker when a person’s character was revealed to be problematic, but I have never disputed a rank because of character flaws as long as there was demonstrable evidence to support the legitimacy of that person’s belt (e.g., photos of them clearly receiving the belt from their instructor; clear rank certificates; social media posts made by the instructor; a certification by the promoting instructor who is also on Beltchecker; a list on the promoting instructor’s website of all their blackbelts; etc.). By withdrawing my vote, I’m disassociating myself from the person, but I’m not calling into question the legitimacy of their fighting skills or technical knowledge of the art.
ALBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
2 year(s) ago
I have recently thought of adding a behavior thing to my ranking as I want students to know that I consider it important but it troubles me that I am being Hypocritical
When I was under Roy Harris, he went to great lengths to outline exactly what he expected from each belt... Anyone who could meet his technical and proficiency requirements could get a blue belt from him (even a stranger at a seminar).
However, for purple belts and above, he had to "know" you personally for a period of time (a couple of years minimum I think it was) AND you had to have a "good character" in his eyes. Without those two things, he wouldn't even consider giving you a purple belt promotion, even if you could roll at a black belt level.
The promotions represent YOUR school, your name, your image... it should 100% absolutely be YOUR standards, in my opinion, and that includes assessment of character (which is a common theme in most other martial arts anyways).
However, for purple belts and above, he had to "know" you personally for a period of time (a couple of years minimum I think it was) AND you had to have a "good character" in his eyes. Without those two things, he wouldn't even consider giving you a purple belt promotion, even if you could roll at a black belt level.
The promotions represent YOUR school, your name, your image... it should 100% absolutely be YOUR standards, in my opinion, and that includes assessment of character (which is a common theme in most other martial arts anyways).
