Anyone else experience weird micro aggressions while cross training?

No. I think we need to discuss how you're choosing your gyms lol.

I cross trained judo for about 4 years. I eventually quit because it honestly just felt like a complete waste of time. No one wanted to teach any throws. We spent about a third of every class playing football and everyone honestly just felt kind of stuck up. And every since I left, anytime I bring up the problems I had, literally EVERYONE just makes excuses, thinks I quit because it was too hard for me, or just thinks I'm lying. Haven't missed judo a single day since I left.

I'm sorry y'all are having such bad experiences with judo. I promise you this is not typical. I'm very fortunate to have a very cool judo community here. Ultimately people/community can make our break one's experience with almost anything.

I went to 4 different judo clubs and everyone else I know what also tried judo has more or less the same story, even the ones from very different parts of Germany than where I live. From my perspective, your experience sounds more like the exception than the rule.

Yeah I don't know, man. I've never trained in Germany, but I doubt that's your issue. Of course there are bound to be some assholes, but those guys are everywhere, and I'm every country. If you ever come through North Carolina, USA, we can go on a non-asshole judo tour. Only judo, no football 😀

Yeah I don't know, man. I've never trained in Germany, but I doubt that's your issue. Of course there are bound to be some assholes, but those guys are everywhere, and in every country. If you ever come through North Carolina, USA, we can go on a non-asshole judo tour. Only judo, no football 😀

It was honestly less an asshole thing and more of a "no one really cared" thing. All of the instructors in the gyms had been doing judo since they were kids (judo is very popular in Germany and just about everyone does judo as a kid at some point.) and lead class for the adults just like when they were kids. More about letting people play and feel good about going then actually teaching judo. Which, okay, fair. That's a good idea for kids who are most likely being sent there because their parents want some cheap martial arts themed daycare and you need to make them enjoy the experience more than they need to learn judo. But adults already want to go. We're paying money, taking time out of our day and most likely moving things from work around to be able to train. We're already motivated, just teach us judo and don't waste out time with stuff we didn't sign up for. I'd have joined a football club if I wanted to play football.

I have no gym ownership experience, but I do have experience in other ventures that tell me you have a few ways to approach this when you are in charge. The first, and what I always chose, is to make your organization what you want it to be and those that want the same thing will join you. Another is to look at what you need to do to attract the most people possible to your organization and do those things. I generally agree with you that adults want to train and don't want or need to be treated like kids, but it doesn't take much work to see that the hardcore gym with no heat or AC and a difficult training program typically isn't as full as the gym with an easier program in a nice environment.

That's a false dichotomy. You're not limited to the extreme of, play football for 1/3 of the class, never teach anything and just treat your adults like kids and be an Olympic level gym. Also, in the gyms I was at, most of the adults left, so clearly that wasn't working. And the adult classes were separate from the kids classes anyway, so it's not like they couldn't just use two different curriculums to cater to the customer. And I have to point out that LITERALLY every BJJ gym I've ever trained in has been able to do this. I coach at my gym too. The kids classes have a different structure and format than the adult classes. We also have competition classes where people can get ready for tournaments and advanced classes for purple belt and above. This really isn't hard and it's also just good business. The only reason one wouldn't have tailed curriculums for their client base is just laziness. And that's honestly how everything felt. No one cared. Out training was irrelevant.

My experience with Judo in the UK has been rather different, too. Clubs are universally inexpensive, and definitely don't have any sleazy payment practices. The standard of newaza is generally pretty low but the only time I've run into attitude about "illegal subs" was when I was rolling with kids (I'm tiny) and unwittingly did something illegal to them. The adults are usually open-minded and welcoming. It sounds like you're just unlucky with the area you're in at the moment, so I hope that when you next move you give it another shot.

I hear the "That was just an exception" and "give tit another chance" statement all the time, and it honestly kind of annoys me.

The main problem we have over here is that adult beginners are rare so it's really hard to find a club with enough of them to make it worth training.

Maybe it's you then 😅 Seems like a tough argument to make that "all judo dojos suck and they just play football all day" when you can turn on the TV (or internet or whatever) and see literally thousands of judoka throwing each other around.

It's an even harder argument to make that my experience is somehow rare when every gym I went to was the same, everyone I know had the same experience, and even other judoka have complained about this.

4 gyms isn't significant, statistically speaking. There are hundreds of thousands of judo programs throughout the world. I did a quick Google search to see what's available in Cologne, and there are at least 20 programs in the city itself. I don't think it's a German thing either. Germany usually has a strong showing in judo competitions, and they've produced more champions at the world level than we (USA) have. If we can have a solid judo program or two in the middle of nowhere North Carolina, I'll bet you can find one in Cologne. Judo isn't for everyone though. There does tend to be more formality, repetition, etc, than bjj, and the rule set is definitely more restrictive, but what do you expect from the OG martial art?

You're ignoring the part where I said that everyone I know had the same problem and even other judoka have said this was pretty normal. Hell, my gym has plenty of former beginner judoka in it who switched because they also didn't like dealing with this. This isn't a me thing. Yeah, the Olympic Team I'm sure is very good, but saying that the state sponsored Olympic Team is great so that means that the small local team with a group of 40 year olds must also be good is just a silly argument. The kids for that team are scouted very young. And the extreme focus on the kids and no one really caring about the adult classes and running them like they were a kids class because they didn't feel like coming up with an adult curriculum was one of the main points I was complaining about in my original message. And I never had a problem with any of the formality. I come from a traditional martial arts background, so none of that was new to me at all. I've done koryu kenjutsu at a Shinto shrine speaking Japanese. I can deal with bowing before and after class. Regarding there being 20 gyms in Cologne, I'm sorry, but listen to what you're saying. Going to 4 different gyms wasn't good enough? Really? I have to try another 20 before I'm allowed to say I've had enough? Would you accept that with any other gym or service in general? And I'm supposed to do this, even when other judoka I know are telling me this is a fairly typical experience? I even asked the places I left where I should go and they said they do things just like everyone else. I'm sure playing football and then just letting people do whatever they want for the rest of the class (no that's not an exaggeration. Most classes we were just told to "grab a partner, do they throws of your choice, then switch partners and do it again") is great when you're a black belt in judo who's been doing it since they were a kid (i.e. most adult black belts) but you can't do that with beginners who don't know anything. Hell, no one even bothered explaining the rules to me. And I honestly never get this refusal to accept that something needs to be improved. Even one of the other posters said in this very thread that almost no new adults come to the adult classes. Other people in any other context would look at that and say, "okay, clearly we're doing something wrong", but anytime this gets brought up in relation to judo and adults, the answer always seems to be, "oh well you're just not giving judo a chance."

Okay I'll stir the pot. Despite the cultural issues and climate of judo clubs, I believe there are several MASSIVE underlying issues (in America) when it comes to teaching Judo to adults. Most of the Judo Sensei's have been training since they were kids and learned judo through a kid's program and have never learned how to teach adults. 1. There is a reason from an academic standpoint that Pedagogy (teaching kids) and Andragogy (teaching adults) is two separate fields of study. Someone in this thread already touched on the MAJOR difference in Andragogy. Adults are intrinsically motivated. Normally, you might have to convince an adult to buy in with a "what's in it for me" concept. BUT as martial artists, we already want to be there, you don't have to sell it to me every class and show me what's in it for me. I already paid and drove to class. It should be easier for the instructor to be honest. Pedagogy on the other hand; Children are extrinsically motivated. You have to motivate them to learn through other means, for younger kids' games are an excellent tool. I think some Sensei's need to take a step back in Judo and realize that an adult program CAN NOT be run like the children's class. 2. Unlike BJJ, Judo has a STEEP rate of return on practical application. For example, when you teach a white belt his first throw, he can't actually hit it live in randori for months or even a year sometimes. There are so many variables that often happen at an incredibly fast pace when standing that even if the opportunity to attempt his one or two throws presents itself, he/she has a split second to recognize and actually execute, or the opportunity is gone. Not to mention how they can get completely shut down and shut out with grips by experienced judoka rendering any throw they learned useless. The reality is learning judo in the beginning is kind of boring, because what you actually need are conceptual ideas of fighting for dominant grips, hip position, and countless "uchi komi's" to build muscle memory of the shape of a throw. Without all this pre-contextually knowledge, you won't even have a slim hope of hitting a throw in randori. Especially since you will probably have to instinctually adapt the throw slightly mid technique to account for the dynamically shifting movement, weight, and balance of a resisting opponent. In other words, you won't feel any micro successes for months. Unfortunately, many Americans want instant gratification. This affects student retention severely. 3. Safety for adults (we aren't as resilient as children sometimes). Highly debated in the judo community. Although, many will agree that white belts in judo should not do randori, especially not with other white belts. At least not at first. Refer back to the steep learning curve. There are too many safety concerns when low experienced white belts randori together. In contrast, With BJJ I can teach mount escapes and then allow white belts do positional sparring only starting from mount with almost zero major risks to the students even on their first day. In judo the best equivalent might be...grip fighting only? Two white belts trying to hit cross body osoto gari on each other from across the room at full intensity is just asking for a torn ACL. I have more reasons I believe Judo in the U.S. is struggling, but that might be for another day. However, at the individual Dojo Level, sensei's need to take these concerns into account to create a successful adult program.

Well, you clearly just need to give it a second chance. Probably was too formal for you. I mean did you train at EVERY judo dojo? (Sarcasm)

Darn you’re right. I’ll start the road trip. Shouldn’t take too long. If we exclude the YMCA and garage clubs, what is there like 30 dojos in the US that aren’t tied to a BJJ academy? Lol 😂

I've actually been surprised over the years how many judo dojos AREN'T attached to bjj clubs. I like your point about pedagogy vs andragogy. When I taught English abroad, I found it way easier & more rewarding working with adults, because they actually wanted to be there. That being said, adults enjoy and learn from games as well. Just look at the popularity of the ecological/game approach in bjj these days: it's "just games". Of course, if you're just playing football, as Chris mentioned, it's probably not helping your judo that much, and I would probably also not be satisfied if I never learned/practiced any throws or did any randori.

The games he's referring to aren't CLS skill based games,but literal games like football, hide and seek and other such things. The reason for this is to make the kids associate going to judo class with something fun and that they will look forward to doing. This goes to the motivation point he was making. Kids generally are going to judo because their parents are sending them there, not because they want to do judo. If they hate doing it, they'll never stick to it and keep training. So they play games with the kids to make it fun for them. This is also why it's a BAD idea with adults who not only do want to be there, but are most likely making a conscious effort to do so, rearranging appointments and taking time out of their day. Making them play game doesn't make them look forward to going to training, it makes them feel ripped off.