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Alternative history of jiujitsu in Brazil
5 year(s) ago • 5187 views • 48 replies
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
I can't think of any linage in the U.S that isn't a product of Gracie Jui Jitsu (maybe Drysdale?) Kind of like politics and religion I take from Jiu Jitsu what works for me and discard the rest, including the strange origin story. Having said that, we owe a good deal of gratitude that the Gracie clan brought the sport/art to the world when and how they did. I also differentiate between Gracie Torrence and the rest of the Gracies. Renzo is an amazing teacher and, judging from what people who know Renzo well have to say, a really good dude.
There are some in the US, who are not Gracie lineage, but not a lot.
Some come from Takeo Yano lineage for example like Francisco Sa, who had instructor status by Takeo Yano (although he trained some years with a George Gracie student, Nilo Veloso). The Sa Family themselves say they are from Takeo Yano lineage.
https://www.bjjheroes.com[...]ancisco-sa
Darlinson and Darcio Lira: I think Darlinson Lira trained with Francisco Sa too and Ivan/Jose Gomes.
https://www.darciolirajiu[...]om/lineage
At least In Brazil there are some more from the Takeo Yano lineage, for example in Minas Gerais (Belo Horizonte area), like Jose Adilson Ferreira and some more...
But in the end, somehow lots of the other old Judo and Jiu Jitsu Masters, like Takeo Yano for example, crosstrained with George Gracie or they ran an academy together, etc... so very often there is a Connection to a Gracie somehow.
Maybe I am repeating myself, but I really can recommend to read the Choque books of Pedreira, which is a lot of content, but facts in relation to origins, history and evolution of Jiu Jitsu in Brazil .
Closed guard, by Robert Drysdale is a more „compressed“ version, but good too.
Some come from Takeo Yano lineage for example like Francisco Sa, who had instructor status by Takeo Yano (although he trained some years with a George Gracie student, Nilo Veloso). The Sa Family themselves say they are from Takeo Yano lineage.
https://www.bjjheroes.com[...]ancisco-sa
Darlinson and Darcio Lira: I think Darlinson Lira trained with Francisco Sa too and Ivan/Jose Gomes.
https://www.darciolirajiu[...]om/lineage
At least In Brazil there are some more from the Takeo Yano lineage, for example in Minas Gerais (Belo Horizonte area), like Jose Adilson Ferreira and some more...
But in the end, somehow lots of the other old Judo and Jiu Jitsu Masters, like Takeo Yano for example, crosstrained with George Gracie or they ran an academy together, etc... so very often there is a Connection to a Gracie somehow.
Maybe I am repeating myself, but I really can recommend to read the Choque books of Pedreira, which is a lot of content, but facts in relation to origins, history and evolution of Jiu Jitsu in Brazil .
Closed guard, by Robert Drysdale is a more „compressed“ version, but good too.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
There may be WAY more people with tied to Maeda if this post is true:
https://www.judo-ch.jp/en[...]/world/br/
According to this, Maeda opened a gym with Ryuzo Ogawa. Ogawa has an extensive Judo history in Brazil which would make his entire lineage a direct tie to Maeda as well. Which makes things super interesting.
https://www.judo-ch.jp/en[...]/world/br/
According to this, Maeda opened a gym with Ryuzo Ogawa. Ogawa has an extensive Judo history in Brazil which would make his entire lineage a direct tie to Maeda as well. Which makes things super interesting.
MGPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
There may be WAY more people with tied to Maeda if this post is true: https://www.judo-ch.jp/en[...]/world/br/ According to this, Maeda opened a gym with Ryuzo Ogawa. Ogawa has an extensive Judo history in Brazil which would make his entire lineage a direct tie to Maeda as well. Which makes things super interesting.
Maeda’s school (which appears to still be open) and time in Brazil is well documented. He even gained Brazilian citizenship. Many judokas in Brazil have Maeda lineage.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
There may be WAY more people with tied to Maeda if this post is true: https://www.judo-ch.jp/en[...]/world/br/ According to this, Maeda opened a gym with Ryuzo Ogawa. Ogawa has an extensive Judo history in Brazil which would make his entire lineage a direct tie to Maeda as well. Which makes things super interesting.
Super cool find. I wonder why this club didn't go with the Kosen judo/newaza route, instead focused more on traditional judo tachi waza. I'm guessing that's under the direction of Ogawa
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
The „Ono“ Bros, who settled in São Paulo are worth to mention, too.
https://simonbjj.com/ono-brothers
https://simonbjj.com/ono-brothers
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Super cool find. I wonder why this club didn't go with the Kosen judo/newaza route, instead focused more on traditional judo tachi waza. I'm guessing that's under the direction of Ogawa
Why would they have? These were Kodokan trained Judokas and Kano is trying to get this to be an Olympic sport by then. Ogawa was a higher ranked belt than Maeda but that doesn't mean that if Maeda was the superior ground player that it wouldn't have directly influenced Ogawas game or any of the students training at that gym with BOTH of them. Which, according to that article, would have been a longer time than the Gracie's had with Maeda. So yes, you may have LOTS of paths to Maeda in Brazil if he did, indeed, teach with Ogawa in Sao Paulo for 3 years.
And my interest in all of this is that Shigeru and Shigueto Yamasaki, father and uncle of Mario and Fernando Yamasaki, respectively, are Ogawa students. Which looks like may give them a more direct path to Maeda than their own Gracie lineage path.
And my interest in all of this is that Shigeru and Shigueto Yamasaki, father and uncle of Mario and Fernando Yamasaki, respectively, are Ogawa students. Which looks like may give them a more direct path to Maeda than their own Gracie lineage path.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Why would they have? These were Kodokan trained Judokas and Kano is trying to get this to be an Olympic sport by then. Ogawa was a higher ranked belt than Maeda but that doesn't mean that if Maeda was the superior ground player that it wouldn't have directly influenced Ogawas game or any of the students training at that gym with BOTH of them. Which, according to that article, would have been a longer time than the Gracie's had with Maeda. So yes, you may have LOTS of paths to Maeda in Brazil if he did, indeed, teach with Ogawa in Sao Paulo for 3 years. And my interest in all of this is that Shigeru and Shigueto Yamasaki, father and uncle of Mario and Fernando Yamasaki, respectively, are Ogawa students. Which looks like may give them a more direct path to Maeda than their own Gracie lineage path.
Makes sense after further reading other articles at simonbjj.com, seeing how the Gracies changed the rules of competitions to protect their brand/business among other nefarious, criminal activities back in the day
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Makes sense after further reading other articles at simonbjj.com, seeing how the Gracies changed the rules of competitions to protect their brand/business among other nefarious, criminal activities back in the day
Circus promoters.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Can anyone comment on if and how long Maeda and his (non-Gracie students) called it Jiu-jitsu as opposed to Judo?
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Can anyone comment on if and how long Maeda and his (non-Gracie students) called it Jiu-jitsu as opposed to Judo?
According to the article in the first link, in 1939 there was a "Jukendo" tournament in Brazil and there were members of the Kodokan there to "solve the confusion that was taking over the country: What’s the difference between judo and jiujitsu?" and tried to convince all the practitioners of "jiujitsu" to subscribe to the Kodokan rules and call it Judo. Supposedly, Helio even was awarded a Black Belt from the Kodokan with the agreement that he would follow Kodokan rules and he declined.
Then in In 1956 Kihara Yoshio, 7th dan, arrived in Brazil with the mission of drawing a clear line that would separate judo from Brazilian jiujitsu.
In 1958 São Paulo’s Judo Federation was founded, the first judo federation in Brazil.
And then, according to the article:
"By the end of the 1950’s, jiujitsu and judo had become two completely different entities. As the Gracie’s realized that jiujitsu was starting to lose its popularity to judo, the founding of a jiujitsu federation was inevitable. On July 12th, 1973, after six years of struggle, Helio and Carlos Gracie finally received from Jeronimo Bastos, president of Brazil’s National Sports Confederation, the official charter document to run the ‘Federacão Carioca de Jiujitsu,’ based on Rua Rodrigo Silva, 18. From that day on, both styles went their separate ways."
Then in In 1956 Kihara Yoshio, 7th dan, arrived in Brazil with the mission of drawing a clear line that would separate judo from Brazilian jiujitsu.
In 1958 São Paulo’s Judo Federation was founded, the first judo federation in Brazil.
And then, according to the article:
"By the end of the 1950’s, jiujitsu and judo had become two completely different entities. As the Gracie’s realized that jiujitsu was starting to lose its popularity to judo, the founding of a jiujitsu federation was inevitable. On July 12th, 1973, after six years of struggle, Helio and Carlos Gracie finally received from Jeronimo Bastos, president of Brazil’s National Sports Confederation, the official charter document to run the ‘Federacão Carioca de Jiujitsu,’ based on Rua Rodrigo Silva, 18. From that day on, both styles went their separate ways."
PDBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Please this is personal opinion..
It seems to me that the Gracies were fixated on creating a ruleset that protected their weaknesses.. They focused on the ground to the exclusion of almost every other aspect of fighting. When Faddha's team beat them with Leg locks they outlawed them.
It's actually why I get such a kick out of them complaining about modern sport BJJ they let the genie out of the bottle
It seems to me that the Gracies were fixated on creating a ruleset that protected their weaknesses.. They focused on the ground to the exclusion of almost every other aspect of fighting. When Faddha's team beat them with Leg locks they outlawed them.
It's actually why I get such a kick out of them complaining about modern sport BJJ they let the genie out of the bottle
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Well the protection of identity for the detriment of the sport is a recurring theme, most recently seen in Judo.
JBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
Please this is personal opinion.. It seems to me that the Gracies were fixated on creating a ruleset that protected their weaknesses.. They focused on the ground to the exclusion of almost every other aspect of fighting. When Faddha's team beat them with Leg locks they outlawed them. It's actually why I get such a kick out of them complaining about modern sport BJJ they let the genie out of the bottle
What drives me crazy is the amount of American Gracie gym owners that buy into this nonsense without question.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
The history of JJ is soo rich and deep, it would take at least a trilogy of movies to do it justice.
CBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
The history of JJ is soo rich and deep, it would take at least a trilogy of movies to do it justice.
MMBlue beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Please this is personal opinion.. It seems to me that the Gracies were fixated on creating a ruleset that protected their weaknesses.. They focused on the ground to the exclusion of almost every other aspect of fighting. When Faddha's team beat them with Leg locks they outlawed them. It's actually why I get such a kick out of them complaining about modern sport BJJ they let the genie out of the bottle
I also understand that the ne-waza aspect was concentrated on in Brazil because of the distinct lack of dojo’s. They were unable to practice tachi-waza in the small shacks due to height and mat area restrictions.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I also understand that the ne-waza aspect was concentrated on in Brazil because of the distinct lack of dojo’s. They were unable to practice tachi-waza in the small shacks due to height and mat area restrictions.
Don't forget judo has always been more popular and widespread in Brazil than Jiu Jitsu.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
5 year(s) ago
I also understand that the ne-waza aspect was concentrated on in Brazil because of the distinct lack of dojo’s. They were unable to practice tachi-waza in the small shacks due to height and mat area restrictions.
this reminds me when someone told me that Koreans kick a lot due to the dry, arid and flat lands in their country and that's why they developed Taekwomdo :)
MBrown beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Here is anew video out from Robert Drysdale on YouTube where he talks about BJJ origins:
https://youtu.be/M-0pqp1ZwZ4
https://youtu.be/M-0pqp1ZwZ4
ADPurple beltVerified
5 year(s) ago
Don't forget judo has always been more popular and widespread in Brazil than Jiu Jitsu.
Yes The Brazilian federation of judo claimed 2 200 000 practitioners in 2012 whereas BJJ had around 200 000. The gap was reduced more recently, but it's still a big gap.
Here's a few things that I was surprised to hear in Brazil (and please, if any brazilians read me, feel free to contradict me, I'd be happy to be corrected if you feel different):
1. Contrary to what the Gracies claim over and over again, BJJ still has a very macho image in Brazil. In all the gyms I trained at over there, I can count on one hand the number of female present.
2. The gracies are much more harshly criticized there than they are in the western world. Yes, they're seen as superstars, everybody I met knew them, but they're seen as much as thugs as they are as martial arts masters. You have to remember that the gracie family and their students in rio were seen as a gang of playboys in the 90's, famous for beating up young kids from the favelas that had stolen stuff in the beach. In fact, many people I met were shocked that a hipstery gringo like me would do BJJ, particularly outside of Rio/Sao Paulo. They saw it as a sign that things had changed (for the better). That's also why, in my understanding, BJJ didn't blow up in Portugal. They didn't want any of that shit there.
3. The Gracies became some very political figures. Lately, the current president has appointed Renzo Gracie as "tourism ambassador" and if you follow the politics at least a little over there (which is a mess), Bozo is not the most popular president in history to say the least. The mayor of rio also erected a statue of Carlson in Rio as well, and that mayor is another Bolsonaro protégé. All this points out to some recuperation of the gracie "tough guy" image to try and improve the president's image by association. Bolsonaro was elected in great parts because he was a former military guy who had a tough stance on crime, at a moment when crime seemed out of control in the country. By opposition traditional martial arts seem like a haven of neutrality.
Here's a few things that I was surprised to hear in Brazil (and please, if any brazilians read me, feel free to contradict me, I'd be happy to be corrected if you feel different):
1. Contrary to what the Gracies claim over and over again, BJJ still has a very macho image in Brazil. In all the gyms I trained at over there, I can count on one hand the number of female present.
2. The gracies are much more harshly criticized there than they are in the western world. Yes, they're seen as superstars, everybody I met knew them, but they're seen as much as thugs as they are as martial arts masters. You have to remember that the gracie family and their students in rio were seen as a gang of playboys in the 90's, famous for beating up young kids from the favelas that had stolen stuff in the beach. In fact, many people I met were shocked that a hipstery gringo like me would do BJJ, particularly outside of Rio/Sao Paulo. They saw it as a sign that things had changed (for the better). That's also why, in my understanding, BJJ didn't blow up in Portugal. They didn't want any of that shit there.
3. The Gracies became some very political figures. Lately, the current president has appointed Renzo Gracie as "tourism ambassador" and if you follow the politics at least a little over there (which is a mess), Bozo is not the most popular president in history to say the least. The mayor of rio also erected a statue of Carlson in Rio as well, and that mayor is another Bolsonaro protégé. All this points out to some recuperation of the gracie "tough guy" image to try and improve the president's image by association. Bolsonaro was elected in great parts because he was a former military guy who had a tough stance on crime, at a moment when crime seemed out of control in the country. By opposition traditional martial arts seem like a haven of neutrality.
Edited 5 year(s) ago
