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Master's against the rules
4 year(s) ago • 2154 views • 54 replies
DBBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is arguably from the 1910s/1920s. It's certainly younger by 30-40 years than judo, but it's actually older than other well-established martial arts like TKD which is from the 1940s. Which martial arts are you specifically comparing it to for considering how "young" it is relative to others? The BJJ belt system was standardized in 1967, so we're just about 65 years into evolving the IBJJF guidelines.
With respect to kids who have been training 10-12 years; 4 years of training as a child is not equivalent to 4 years of training as an adult for a few reasons. First, the way kids are taught is generally different. Using USA Wrestling's development model as an example, the young group of kids (younger than 12) should be focused way more on "physical literacy" than specific technical application. For young kids, you'll see the best success by focusing on games and drills that encourage them to have fun and form positive associations with the sport so when they have longer attention spans and a better understanding of how their body moves they'll be more likely to engage in the sport at a higher level of competency. That's not to say every BJJ gym is following a development model like USA Wrestling's, but that having an average eight year old try to drill the way a 34 year old would is almost always going to be frustrating to you as a coach. I think the minimum ages set out by the IBJJF are reasonable. Judo has similar age restrictions. Asking someone to be 18 to be a brown belt and 19 to be a black belt seems reasonable.
With respect to grappling ability - we have guys who wrestled 12-16 years (from childhood through college). They are undeniably amazing grapplers. They can out-grapple most purple/brown belts and if you have an older black belt, they're probably going to make his life hell. They still don't have a guard they can play if you do get them onto their backs, can't pass if you get them locked in to a closed guard, and know few, if any, submissions when they come in the first time. So, should they be black belts purely on grappling ability? I'd argue no. They'll progress through the belt system much faster than other people, but having even them take at least a year at each belt rank to learn BJJ and not just generalized grappling so they can be well-rounded practitioners seems reasonable to me.
I'm not the biggest fan of the IBJJF, and there are aspects of the belt system I think are problematic (why is a "first degree black belt" different from a black belt? It's not that way in any other martial art - getting your black belt is the first degree in karate, TKD, judo, etc.), but I think the minimum ages and minimum time-in-grade requirements are sensible with respect to the expectations of a martial arts rank. I don't think restricting people from grappling up in skill divisions is though - if a blue belt wants to try their hand in the purple belt division before they're promoted, let them.
With respect to kids who have been training 10-12 years; 4 years of training as a child is not equivalent to 4 years of training as an adult for a few reasons. First, the way kids are taught is generally different. Using USA Wrestling's development model as an example, the young group of kids (younger than 12) should be focused way more on "physical literacy" than specific technical application. For young kids, you'll see the best success by focusing on games and drills that encourage them to have fun and form positive associations with the sport so when they have longer attention spans and a better understanding of how their body moves they'll be more likely to engage in the sport at a higher level of competency. That's not to say every BJJ gym is following a development model like USA Wrestling's, but that having an average eight year old try to drill the way a 34 year old would is almost always going to be frustrating to you as a coach. I think the minimum ages set out by the IBJJF are reasonable. Judo has similar age restrictions. Asking someone to be 18 to be a brown belt and 19 to be a black belt seems reasonable.
With respect to grappling ability - we have guys who wrestled 12-16 years (from childhood through college). They are undeniably amazing grapplers. They can out-grapple most purple/brown belts and if you have an older black belt, they're probably going to make his life hell. They still don't have a guard they can play if you do get them onto their backs, can't pass if you get them locked in to a closed guard, and know few, if any, submissions when they come in the first time. So, should they be black belts purely on grappling ability? I'd argue no. They'll progress through the belt system much faster than other people, but having even them take at least a year at each belt rank to learn BJJ and not just generalized grappling so they can be well-rounded practitioners seems reasonable to me.
I'm not the biggest fan of the IBJJF, and there are aspects of the belt system I think are problematic (why is a "first degree black belt" different from a black belt? It's not that way in any other martial art - getting your black belt is the first degree in karate, TKD, judo, etc.), but I think the minimum ages and minimum time-in-grade requirements are sensible with respect to the expectations of a martial arts rank. I don't think restricting people from grappling up in skill divisions is though - if a blue belt wants to try their hand in the purple belt division before they're promoted, let them.
CGBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I also just remember that Royce Gracie was notorious for throwing blue belts around like candy back in the days. He hosted a seminar in Denmark early 2000s and at the end of it he said that everyone who had rolled with him were now blue belts. One of those guys were a little bit confused/skeptical and asked how that actually worked and Royce answered with a bit of a smirk: "If anybody ask you how you are a blue belt... Just say you got it from ROOOOOYCE GRACIE" and kind of notted a bit in approval of hearing him say his own name out loud :D
That's when I slipped out the door and headed for the showers.
That's when I slipped out the door and headed for the showers.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I also just remember that Royce Gracie was notorious for throwing blue belts around like candy back in the days. He hosted a seminar in Denmark early 2000s and at the end of it he said that everyone who had rolled with him were now blue belts. One of those guys were a little bit confused/skeptical and asked how that actually worked and Royce answered with a bit of a smirk: 'If anybody ask you how you are a blue belt... Just say you got it from ROOOOOYCE GRACIE' and kind of notted a bit in approval of hearing him say his own name out loud :D That's when I slipped out the door and headed for the showers.
Ahahaha WTF, customer gift maybe ?
I like those crazy stories, pretty original way to graduate people, maybe was he late to going back home and was afraid of missing his plane.
I ear long time ago, the perfect oposit it was with Alliance founder, Romero Jacare, who start Alliance school here but it didn't work because he refuse to promote guys to purple, because he was saying that they didn't had the level, so they choose another Master to follow ;-) by the way, i'm very sad because i wasn't there at that time and i miss this opportunity, taking my time would not be a problem compare to what you can learn from that amazing Master.
I like those crazy stories, pretty original way to graduate people, maybe was he late to going back home and was afraid of missing his plane.
I ear long time ago, the perfect oposit it was with Alliance founder, Romero Jacare, who start Alliance school here but it didn't work because he refuse to promote guys to purple, because he was saying that they didn't had the level, so they choose another Master to follow ;-) by the way, i'm very sad because i wasn't there at that time and i miss this opportunity, taking my time would not be a problem compare to what you can learn from that amazing Master.
VCBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I also just remember that Royce Gracie was notorious for throwing blue belts around like candy back in the days. He hosted a seminar in Denmark early 2000s and at the end of it he said that everyone who had rolled with him were now blue belts. One of those guys were a little bit confused/skeptical and asked how that actually worked and Royce answered with a bit of a smirk: 'If anybody ask you how you are a blue belt... Just say you got it from ROOOOOYCE GRACIE' and kind of notted a bit in approval of hearing him say his own name out loud :D That's when I slipped out the door and headed for the showers.
I bet he (Royce) was at the height of his fame back then and was milking it for what it's worth...
BTPurple beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
You who are interested may have seen this (video attached), it may be relevant to the conversation since there is the discussion of belts, promotions, etc. I see some signaling of disapproval of what some of those who came before have done. It is not for me to judge them because they were the first in many things. It is not for me to judge those who disapprove.
Maybe this video causes some to roll their eyes. For me, it was about relevance. This is where I decided to focus on the knowledge of Jiu-jitsu and not dwell so much on a belt.
A black belt only covers two inches of your ass. You have to cover the rest. -Royce Gracie
GM Helio Gracie on the Jiu-Jitsu Belt System (video pasted)
https://youtu.be/cVQC-fyF5-c
Maybe this video causes some to roll their eyes. For me, it was about relevance. This is where I decided to focus on the knowledge of Jiu-jitsu and not dwell so much on a belt.
A black belt only covers two inches of your ass. You have to cover the rest. -Royce Gracie
GM Helio Gracie on the Jiu-Jitsu Belt System (video pasted)
https://youtu.be/cVQC-fyF5-c
BNPurple beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
I bet he (Royce) was at the height of his fame back then and was milking it for what it's worth...
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
It seems he certainly did: https://www.forbes.com/si[...]8ebdb73794
To escape from this one it gonna be hard...
BNPurple beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
It's impossible to compare 95-2000 and 2017-2022, imagine that the bjj community in all Europe was like 500 people, with blue belt White and blue belt teachers and when you are Lucky enough to see a purple belt He's like an half-god.... we start the things but now almost each academy got Brown and Black belt, the technical level in general was too low to archive a Black belt in fine years at that time.
I guess my broader point was basically that back in 95-00 it was the "wild west" and while there wasn't a good enough technical level to attain the skill of brown/black over the course of 5 years, there was also very little reason to care. As time moves on and things become more "sporitified" there is clearly more interest (read: money) in creating a more broad hierarchy and put have guardrails on rank, etc.
JABlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I also just remember that Royce Gracie was notorious for throwing blue belts around like candy back in the days. He hosted a seminar in Denmark early 2000s and at the end of it he said that everyone who had rolled with him were now blue belts. One of those guys were a little bit confused/skeptical and asked how that actually worked and Royce answered with a bit of a smirk: 'If anybody ask you how you are a blue belt... Just say you got it from ROOOOOYCE GRACIE' and kind of notted a bit in approval of hearing him say his own name out loud :D That's when I slipped out the door and headed for the showers.
That happened at my TJJ club in Winchester in the UK, Royce did a seminar for us and promoted 3 of my guys and myself to Blue belt back in 2001 - Started again with Colin Howells at White belt in 2011. It didn't seem right being graded in something I had only been training in on and off, even though some of the TJJ skills were transferable.
JJBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
Just moved and was re organizing my travel stuff and noticed 5 of my 6 magnets from Belgium had that statue. I didn't go out of my way to just get magnets with that statue on it. It was like every magnet they sold had it on it.
Side note I have way too many magnets.
Side note I have way too many magnets.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
Just moved and was re organizing my travel stuff and noticed 5 of my 6 magnets from Belgium had that statue. I didn't go out of my way to just get magnets with that statue on it. It was like every magnet they sold had it on it. Side note I have way too many magnets.
Nice collection !
Yes it's kind of the most famous "monument to visit in Brussels", we got also the Atomium, near our academy
Yes it's kind of the most famous "monument to visit in Brussels", we got also the Atomium, near our academy
Edited 4 year(s) ago
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
Around 100 meters tall, you can enter inside to look from really high point of view, and there is also a restaurant inside too.
The King Palace is not so far as well maybe one kilometer and the chinees and japan tour and garden also, those monument are there because they were part of the world expo of 1958.
The King Palace is not so far as well maybe one kilometer and the chinees and japan tour and garden also, those monument are there because they were part of the world expo of 1958.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I got my blue belt in 2005 and my purple belt just a little than a year after (2006). Back then noone cared about official grading times etc.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I got my blue belt in 2005 and my purple belt just a little than a year after (2006). Back then noone cared about official grading times etc.
You have to run far away now before the IBJJF Police find you...first smash your phone, then take a bag with some clothes, water and some dryfood....being outlaw is a really stressfull life but if you need supplies or a place to sleep, we are with you.
Edited 4 year(s) ago
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I redeemed it by being a purplebelt for 9 years ;) But IBJJF doesn't care too much, they only care that I paid my BB fee last year.
BNPurple beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
I redeemed it by being a purplebelt for 9 years ;) But IBJJF doesn't care too much, they only care that I paid my BB fee last year.
I have wondered how that works for people who first register as brown/black belts. Lately I have been thinking that purple might be my ceiling in jiu jitsu.... but I guess I need to stop comparing myself against these guys in their 20s that wrestled for a dozen years prior to getting into jiu jitsu.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I was registered also as a brownbelt and didn't encounter any problems...
DBBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
I have wondered how that works for people who first register as brown/black belts. Lately I have been thinking that purple might be my ceiling in jiu jitsu.... but I guess I need to stop comparing myself against these guys in their 20s that wrestled for a dozen years prior to getting into jiu jitsu.
I'll be registering as a black belt in hopes of being able to sign off on paperwork for people who want to compete one day and can let you know how it goes when that happens. Having said that, outside of a probationary period, I don't expect there's going to be any issues because of the respective ranks of the people who will be doing my paperwork when that time comes.
SZBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I'll be registering as a black belt in hopes of being able to sign off on paperwork for people who want to compete one day and can let you know how it goes when that happens. Having said that, outside of a probationary period, I don't expect there's going to be any issues because of the respective ranks of the people who will be doing my paperwork when that time comes.
This is also one of the reasons I registered with IBJJF as a brown belt. Since I changed academies, I waited until I completed my probationary period last month to register my black belt promotion that I received in January. I didn't have any issues.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
Well, here's a very recent example where someone has NOT followed IBJJF guidelines but seems to be worthy of their rank:
https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p?id=24761
https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p?id=24761
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
Well, here's a very recent example where someone has NOT followed IBJJF guidelines but seems to be worthy of their rank: https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p?id=24761
I like the way you expose People
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I like the way you expose People
I hope it was meant in jest. I think official time caps on belts are ridiculous.
This dude seems to have legit competitive skills (unlike some others who have progressed from white to black as fast) and his teacher seems legit as well.
This dude seems to have legit competitive skills (unlike some others who have progressed from white to black as fast) and his teacher seems legit as well.
BZBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
4 year(s) ago
I hope it was meant in jest. I think official time caps on belts are ridiculous. This dude seems to have legit competitive skills (unlike some others who have progressed from white to black as fast) and his teacher seems legit as well.
i was just kidding ;) for me IBJJF is like a mafia, and sadly people give them too much credit, it's only financial but they are the biggest one so the majority of practitioners are forced to follow their rules...long time ago i was doing their championship, but then the rules have change and you must pay too much , i don't have the ability to spend my money in there so it stop my motivation, even if one of my dream was to take part of the world at black belt.
I'm the kind of guy always joking so don't take it personal if i say something, it's never against you
I'm the kind of guy always joking so don't take it personal if i say something, it's never against you
DSBlack beltVerified
4 year(s) ago
I'm new to this forum so hi first of all!
My teacher is a coral belt and there is the ABIMJJ association of Mestres in Brazil. Sometimes they do make exceptions of rules for the sake of it.
My teachers old student in Brazil actually received the coral belt before him for an example.
They also made a new belt for the 8th degree red/white. They included black in it so its a three colour belt at that level before adopting the red afterwards for the end degree as normal.
Only a few Mestres from the ABIMJJ use it as a change to the other one, and who is going to tell them no?
So yea, I guess you can in some ways can take your own path.
My teacher is a coral belt and there is the ABIMJJ association of Mestres in Brazil. Sometimes they do make exceptions of rules for the sake of it.
My teachers old student in Brazil actually received the coral belt before him for an example.
They also made a new belt for the 8th degree red/white. They included black in it so its a three colour belt at that level before adopting the red afterwards for the end degree as normal.
Only a few Mestres from the ABIMJJ use it as a change to the other one, and who is going to tell them no?
So yea, I guess you can in some ways can take your own path.
