We don't need stripes to tell the time. Nor is time in any way relevant to jiu jitsu progress

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? That we don't need belts? that they are superfluous? On some level that is true. But I'm not convinced you actually believe in it. I mean, the entire site is about gatekeeping the belt system.

That's what the divisions say. But in practise, but still make a rank based call. a guy who has done BJJ on and off for 10 years is not jumping in with black belts. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? That we don't need belts? that they are superfluous? On some level that is true. But I'm not convinced you actually believe in it. I mean, the entire site is about gatekeeping the belt system.

The entire site, was an alternative, and competing system, to the IBJJF. It was glorious revolution. Probably because CG thought it would be funny, and potentially useful. Many great programming projects start because a programmer gets an itch, that they cannot help but scratch. Which is why it pays to put irritants on the programmers' bathroom toilet paper, And one never goes broke providing free caffeine, and coffee to the engineering and programming staff.

Is this site gatekeeping or looking for ratifying evidence of a claimed belt? I use and follow the belt system. Just playing devil's advocate

Ratifying evidence of a claimed belt, in order to maintain standards, is quite literally gatekeeping. This is a positive thing. Gatekeeping is only a negative if done in a negative way. I'm aware you follow the belt system. So do I. I'd assume we all do on Beltchecker - otherwise why be interest in a site that validates belt. Hence was I said I wasn't taking your suggestion that belts are superfluous seriously. Belts are the established structure. They are necessary based on the current rank meta. Stripes/Degrees are not.

Belt ranks are optional. There are plenty of venues and rule sets where one can compete that do not require , nor use, rank belts. And there are plenty of grappling schools that don’t use them, or at the very least seriously de-emphasize them. Kids usually love them, though, I’ll grant you that.

Grappling? Sure. There are no belts in wrestling, MMA, Sambo. And all would be consider legitimate martial arts that involve grappling. But in jiujitsu/BJJ I very much doubt there are plenty not using rank. Even well know schools that are entire focused on nogi grappling, still award traditional ranks, and belts to symbolise those ranks. Can you point to some of these schools? I'm sure there are is a school that does everything, if you look long enough.

As time goes on I feel more and more inclined to use stripes just for colored belts (I still see purpose in them) and remove the red bar from my black belt as Christian Graugart. Didn't remove the red bar yet but if it falls off I'll be okay with it. In my opinion the thing with graduation systems is that it is a dialectic process, i.e., it's contradictory... I wonder if we should not have a rating system with ELO like in chess to be used for competition as someone suggested to have a baby black belt division. E.g.: folks like Mica, Buchecha, Mendes bros, Cobrinha, Roger would be like chess super GM's hiting above 3000 ratings and mere mortal black belt's around 2000 - 2300 as chess 'weaker' GM's. The purpose would be not to replace the belt system but a try to rank competitive prowess as it is will be flawed too.

Just for competition BJJ obviously, but even though I in many ways like the idea, I would suspect it's difficult to combine results from different organizations as well as money money money being a factor and that the usual suspects would quickly find ways to capitalize. How does it work in chess? Any money grab schemes involved there in practitioner's wishes to better their ELO?

Sure. Increasingly, some of the the schools under my lineage de-emphasize rank. In particular, because some of them focus on purse grappling. But, give it time, as gi or no gi is a question that has cycled for a long time. In Brazil, with Jiu-Jitsu vs Luta Livre. In the American Colonies, where 'scuffle bees' were held, with jackets, and without, and allowed chokes, and joint locks, and had throws called, 'the Mare's Leg' aka Uchi Mata in Judo, captured on wood prints, and in colonial newspaper articles. None of this stuff is new. None of these questions are new. Quite likely, the Greeks, and the Romans, and long before either were new, the Egyptians argued about these same things. Because on the side of one of the Pyramid wall, are engravings, of just about every wrestling move you can remember. 'Rank belts'... A new and silly custom. More useful for pageantry, and cultish brainwashing, and comic books, than any practical use. Although the kids seem to love them.

Hmmm, I can't help but noticed you did give an example of any JJ schools that don't have rank.

I did, though. I stated several of the schools under my lineage de-emphasize rank. Some of them only retain or use 'rank' for the purposes of competing in venues that still use 'rank'. Regarding historical grappling styles, you seem to miss the point. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is an American martial art style, not a Japanese one. And Kano created Judo primarily by being a careful student of Western Wrestling styles, and also Sumo as a leftover of Mongol Belt Wrestling. Mitsuyo Maeda trained out of Catch Wrestling gyms and Professional Wrestling gyms far longer than he did in Japan. George Gracie pulled a lot from the Luta Livre crowd. Rolls Gracie pulled a lot from Wrestling and Sambo. The Gracie brothers were all Brazilian and Brasil in an American country. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is therefore an American art / style, which has drawn most of its technique repertoire from catch wrestling, western wrestling, and luta livre. It is true that classical Jiu-Jitsu may have played a small role in Kano's Judo, compared to Western Wrestling and Sumo. And it is true that George Medhi and Osvaldo Alves brought a lot of good Judo back in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, However, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is clearly an American art, that owes more of its technique repertoire to Western Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, and Luta Livre than it does to Judo and Jiu-Jitsu. And Judo owes more of its technique repertoire to Western Wrestling and Sumo / Mongol Belt Wrestling, than 'Jujutsu'. All the rest was just Comic Book history, and folk lore. Designed to sell event tickets, comic books, movies, and newspapers.

Stating several schools is not an example, it's a claim. I'm not suggesting you are making it up, but you also are naming the school or the coach. I don't see how I've missed the point you named a number of styles, mostly European, than don't have rank. That was never claimed, so not really relevant. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is American, based on a japananese art. I'm really surprised I have to point that out. The name is literally Japanese, the uniform is Japanese, the fundamentals are largely Japanese. Obvious it has taken it's technique from wrestling too, but doesn't make it wrestling. There are far more pulled from judo. I shouldn't have to list them. To say most of its technique from wrestling is simply not true. I've no idea how Catch and Sambo reinforce its American-ness, considering neither is American. Sambo also came from judo btw. Jiu-Jitsu may have played a small role in Kano's Judo? LOL. A small roll, that's funny man. It's predominantly based on Japanese arts, which includes sumo. I funny agree that the story gets heavily coloured. And it has developed a lot over the years. But the origin is a point in time.

Prior to Dr. Kanō’s invention of the keikogi and belt rank system (along with the kyū/dan rank system that he borrowed from the competitive board game go), Japanese jūjutsu used the menkyo 免許 system. Samurai trained in street clothes—for them, a kimono and hakama—and received scrolls that indicated their ability level and teaching privileges (if any). It was still a rank system, but it didn’t involve belts or uniforms. I don’t plan on handing out menkyo anytime soon, but I do find it interesting that there was a radically different ranking system in place through the late 1800’s.

Prior to Dr. Kanō’s invention of the keikogi and belt rank system (along with the kyū/dan rank system that he borrowed from the competitive board game go), Japanese jūjutsu used the menkyo 免許 system. Samurai trained in street clothes—for them, a kimono and hakama—and received scrolls that indicated their ability level and teaching privileges (if any). It was still a rank system, but it didn’t involve belts or uniforms. I don’t plan on handing out menkyo anytime soon, but I do find it interesting that there was a radically different ranking system in place through the late 1800’s.

Well, the change followed the social development and political changes in Japan. Judo was designed as an educational program for everyones body and mind, and no longer a martial art for some elites like the old, family-based ryuha. The approach of Judo was comparable to the gymnastics movement in the German Empire at the same period. At that time it included -of course- a touch of military educational mindset, too.

When the Samurai were a fighting class, they were the worst sort of rapists, murderers, and bandits. Japan, after all, came quite late to literacy, and was an isolated by bad weather island. When the 'Samurai' were more literate, more civilized, and wrote great poetry about themselves, they were no longer a fighting class, and many of them, holding high government bureaucratic station, Had never been in a fight, except that which involved their pens, as weapons. Likewise, European tales of knightly chivalry... See my previous comments about dysentery, diarrhea, and other forms of comic book horseshit.

I was just making the observation that jūjutsu used to have a different ranking system prior to Jigorō Kanō. Your earlier post about some BJJ schools de-emphasizing belt rank made me think of the different ways that jiu-jitsu (jūjutsu) rank has been handled in the past. I’m not glorifying samurai or koryū jūjutsu. I’m simply noting that rank hasn’t always been the same throughout the history of our art. Even in BJJ, different belts were used prior to the formation of the Federação de Jiu-Jitsu da Guanabara in 1967.

Some of the people who run those schools have accounts here. They are under my lineage, but they can call themselves out if they want. And, sure the name is Japanese. The skillful Jiu-Jitsu man in the gi fighting the large weight lifter / wrestler is a favorite marketing device. In other news, Helio Gracie was a big guy, and a skilled athlete before and outside of Jiu-Jitsu. Kano was a serious student of all things Western, and drew heavily from Western Wrestling. But marketing and folklore, like pub tales, often don’t let facts interfere with telling a good story.

Prior to Dr. Kanō’s invention of the keikogi and belt rank system (along with the kyū/dan rank system that he borrowed from the competitive board game go), Japanese jūjutsu used the menkyo 免許 system. Samurai trained in street clothes—for them, a kimono and hakama—and received scrolls that indicated their ability level and teaching privileges (if any). It was still a rank system, but it didn’t involve belts or uniforms. I don’t plan on handing out menkyo anytime soon, but I do find it interesting that there was a radically different ranking system in place through the late 1800’s.

Time to fire up that brush pen and code up Menkyochecker.com