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Self Defense Vs. Sport
6 year(s) ago • 1952 views • 126 replies
RGBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Okay here’s the age old argument again! Which is better and why. I believe without training self defense you’ve never really trained Jiu jitsu. What’s your opinion? And how many of you train self defense moves or have set days for self defense. And how often?
DP
Black belt 3rd degreePending
6 year(s) ago
I think in order to teach a complete system you need to address 3 major items: Gi/Sport BJJ, Nogi, and Self defense. While it is true that most schools tend to be focused on one or the other, I think to have a true understanding of BJJ as a martial art, you need to address all three fields on a routine basis. Failing to do so will eventually make your program feel lacking to your students. One of my old training partners in San Diego names Elias Gallegos, probably does the best job in keeping his scheduled balanced in all 3 disciplines that I have seen. Pretty sure some of his belt promotion tests are online that demonstrate this well.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
HBBlack belt 3rd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I teach gi/no gi, sport (grappling and MMA), self defense and combatives. I mix it up so my students see the different ways BJJ can be utilized.
They all have their pros and cons, but the most important part is obviously be aware of your surroundings, and use your head first to avoid outside conflict.
They all have their pros and cons, but the most important part is obviously be aware of your surroundings, and use your head first to avoid outside conflict.
GJBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I have trained a places that focus on each side of the coin. I think both are very important. It depends on the goals of each individual. The basics are the same with self defense and competition. that is what pretty much everyone will go to in a real fight. All the guard systems show you ways to compromise a base. That’s a great thing to have an understanding of, submissions are basically the same from every angle. The place I train now is a competition school. There is some sporadic self defense techniques thrown in but it’s not focused on.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
JMBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Great question!
As an MMA gym, a lot of our guys train striking, BJJ & Wrestling so for them it is less of an issue...however
We have long had separate Gi & NOGI classes, and discuss punch defense and other self defense related topics, but I’m seriously considering a designated Self Defense Class at least once a week to ensure, the “BJJ only students” get adequate, well rounded skills as well!
As an MMA gym, a lot of our guys train striking, BJJ & Wrestling so for them it is less of an issue...however
We have long had separate Gi & NOGI classes, and discuss punch defense and other self defense related topics, but I’m seriously considering a designated Self Defense Class at least once a week to ensure, the “BJJ only students” get adequate, well rounded skills as well!
RGBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Jacob Michael Bateman, that’s great! I would love to see more gyms offer self defense classes that include clothing grabs, bear hug from behind, hair grab defense, “schoolyard style” headlock defense, etc. It’s very easy to get caught up in the day to day routine of trying to make my Jiu jitsu better than someone else’s Jiu-Jitsu. Most everyday people we meet don’t know Jiu jitsu or any martial art. so I believe sometimes it’s good to refresh and practice scenarios like that. I’m lucky to train under Fabio Santos and at least once a week we go over that kind of stuff.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
RGBlack belt 1st degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
But don’t get me wrong, I also love to hit fancy gi chokes and knee bars from X guard haha! At the end of the day it’s all about balanced training I think. I also am of the opinion that if your a badass in the gi, but you take off the gi jacket and suddenly you can’t roll for shit, can you really call yourself an expert grappler? Gotta have both!
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I'm actually in quite a disagreement Ryan :) I think this "self-defence" techniques are mostly just "bad MMA". Also everywhere I've seen it practiced, it's practiced without real resistance and unrealistic scenario. Let's take the headlock example. One does the "techniques" and at best when resistance is introduced, it just becomes a judo/wrestling drill :) (at worst, resistance is never introduced).
I'm pretty sure if Mendes brothers got into a fight they wouldn't pull guard and berimbolo...
Basic wrestling body awareness is what will protect you against all "grabs and hugs".
So if self defence is a concern - do some standup wrestling and some striking art, possibly mix them together in MMA for a year or two and you're more than good to go. Once a week wristlock response to a static collar grab is just a waste of time.
I love the Chris Haueter "Think street, practice art, train sport" mantra.
I'm pretty sure if Mendes brothers got into a fight they wouldn't pull guard and berimbolo...
Basic wrestling body awareness is what will protect you against all "grabs and hugs".
So if self defence is a concern - do some standup wrestling and some striking art, possibly mix them together in MMA for a year or two and you're more than good to go. Once a week wristlock response to a static collar grab is just a waste of time.
I love the Chris Haueter "Think street, practice art, train sport" mantra.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
FFBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Jorgen would you stop writing my answers for me please. Also, anyone who hasn’t been in brawls as a teenager is at huge disadvantage on the streets, regardless the training.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Jorgen would you stop writing my answers for me please. Also, anyone who hasn’t been in brawls as a teenager is at huge disadvantage on the streets, regardless the training.
:D NO!
(I wasn't much of a brawler as a teenager and for my first MMA fight I got an opponent a judo guy who was also a notorious ruckus-maker and boy was I in for a surprise - was overwhelmed by the tenacity and intensity and general YOLO in his fighting style)
(I wasn't much of a brawler as a teenager and for my first MMA fight I got an opponent a judo guy who was also a notorious ruckus-maker and boy was I in for a surprise - was overwhelmed by the tenacity and intensity and general YOLO in his fighting style)
MEPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
@Jorgen Matsi
In fairness most of the "schoolyard headlock" defenses that came down on GJJ are simply variants of wrestling defenses to a head and arm throw.
"Bear hug" defenses are the same thing. Albeit, I will admit, often taught sloppily.
However if the club at all focuses on stand up grappling these things ought to be trained with a realistic level of resistance.
For the street fight argument, I would say that many martial artists would do well to peruse LiveLeaks and see how the majority of street fights unfold. It would help a lot in understanding and depicting realistic scenarios.
In fairness most of the "schoolyard headlock" defenses that came down on GJJ are simply variants of wrestling defenses to a head and arm throw.
"Bear hug" defenses are the same thing. Albeit, I will admit, often taught sloppily.
However if the club at all focuses on stand up grappling these things ought to be trained with a realistic level of resistance.
For the street fight argument, I would say that many martial artists would do well to peruse LiveLeaks and see how the majority of street fights unfold. It would help a lot in understanding and depicting realistic scenarios.
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Complete agreement with Jorgen Matsi here.
Train the sport, but add punching to your wrestling sometimes if you're concerned about self defence, and maybe try a few times how to pick up a single leg from a schoolyard headlock.
In Finland, people wear jackets all year around, so gi training translates to takedowns and control in the streets too.
We had a self defence class in our gym for a while, which taught the original Helio Gracie curriculum, and I thought that was fun for the sake of conventional wisdom of the art, but that's about it. If somebody pulls a weapon he shall have my wallet.
Train the sport, but add punching to your wrestling sometimes if you're concerned about self defence, and maybe try a few times how to pick up a single leg from a schoolyard headlock.
In Finland, people wear jackets all year around, so gi training translates to takedowns and control in the streets too.
We had a self defence class in our gym for a while, which taught the original Helio Gracie curriculum, and I thought that was fun for the sake of conventional wisdom of the art, but that's about it. If somebody pulls a weapon he shall have my wallet.
JMBlack belt 2nd degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
If somebody pulls a weapon he shall have my wallet.
...makes note to have a knife with me for Spring Camp... hey, those hipster burgers in Tellisikivi don't pay for themselves...
MEPurple beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
If they want to kill you, you probably won't see the knife before they've already stabbed you. If they are brandishing it to get something from you, they probably don't mean to kill you. Toss your wallet at their feet and when they bend down to pick it up, run away.
I have long held that parkour is a valid and effective martial art that compliments more combative martial arts well for the purposes of self defense.
I have long held that parkour is a valid and effective martial art that compliments more combative martial arts well for the purposes of self defense.
KBBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
Yeah, I think if you don't practice it with full resistance, you shouldn't teach it. That's the origin of every bullshido.
If you do self defense with genuine full resistance, more power to you.
But training sport is more than enough training to make someone able to handle themselves fine on the street.
If you do self defense with genuine full resistance, more power to you.
But training sport is more than enough training to make someone able to handle themselves fine on the street.
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
...makes note to have a knife with me for Spring Camp... hey, those hipster burgers in Tellisikivi don't pay for themselves...
Jorgen, I'll be sharing accommodation in Tallinn with a guy who makes tactical knives for a living (and of which I take photographs as side gig)...
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I think a black belt should be knowledgeable in all aspects of bjj. Self defense, sport, vale tudo, Gi and No Gi. We practice and teach all of it. Our students put gloves and mouthpieces in every other week. (first and third week of the month) Also great to mix it up so no one gets bored or feels like they aren't getting what they signed up for.
Getting punched while grappling has some real value in my opinion. Just like getting smashed in side control and mount has value.
You never know how you are going to react in any situation so it's good to experience it. Just like comp you need to know how to control your nerves, breathing etc.
How would the Mendes bros do in a fight? No idea but I hope they prevail either way. Different strokes for different folks is the general rule.
Just my 2 cents.
Getting punched while grappling has some real value in my opinion. Just like getting smashed in side control and mount has value.
You never know how you are going to react in any situation so it's good to experience it. Just like comp you need to know how to control your nerves, breathing etc.
How would the Mendes bros do in a fight? No idea but I hope they prevail either way. Different strokes for different folks is the general rule.
Just my 2 cents.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Well, I am just your typical gun loving American.
I do grapple fu for exercise, sport, and fun.
And for self-defense, I rely on avoidance, situational awareness, making good choices, being well armed,
and occasionally doing what my wife tells me to do,
so she does not kill me in my sleep.
I do grapple fu for exercise, sport, and fun.
And for self-defense, I rely on avoidance, situational awareness, making good choices, being well armed,
and occasionally doing what my wife tells me to do,
so she does not kill me in my sleep.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
TPBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I do grapple fu for exercise, sport, and fun. And for self-defense, I rely on avoidance, situational awareness, making good choices, being well armed, and occasionally doing what my wife tells me to do, so she does not kill me in my sleep.
No wonder Mr. Murphy is the highest ranking member of the site with this level of knowledge dropping.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
David Gonzales,
I would rather talk about what firearms I admire,
than which firearms I have, for a variety of reasons.
I find the Glock 19, and P365 to be nice concealed carry pistols.
I love ruger revolvers, especially in the caliber of .357 magnum.
Being that I am in Florida, most of my pig hunting is in brush / swamp conditions, for which I like to use lever rifles.
I prefer to target shoot in .22LR, because ammo can get expensive, and it is often cheaper to get the form factor of your other firearms also in .22LR for the bulk of one's plinking and target practice.
I think the AR-15, especially in pistol form factors, is a dandy home property self-defense rifle, and often affordably priced, with affordable rifle ammo.
I also like home defense shotguns.
And, I love airguns of all kinds, especially those well suited to hunting with,
and also BB gun and airsoft replicas of firearms well suited to training with, either to keep ammo costs down, or for greater safety during move and shoot training.
I would rather talk about what firearms I admire,
than which firearms I have, for a variety of reasons.
I find the Glock 19, and P365 to be nice concealed carry pistols.
I love ruger revolvers, especially in the caliber of .357 magnum.
Being that I am in Florida, most of my pig hunting is in brush / swamp conditions, for which I like to use lever rifles.
I prefer to target shoot in .22LR, because ammo can get expensive, and it is often cheaper to get the form factor of your other firearms also in .22LR for the bulk of one's plinking and target practice.
I think the AR-15, especially in pistol form factors, is a dandy home property self-defense rifle, and often affordably priced, with affordable rifle ammo.
I also like home defense shotguns.
And, I love airguns of all kinds, especially those well suited to hunting with,
and also BB gun and airsoft replicas of firearms well suited to training with, either to keep ammo costs down, or for greater safety during move and shoot training.
LDBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I come from a very sport specific style/academy. That being said, I know that I'm NOT GOING TO ATTEMPT A BERIMBOLO IN A STREET FIGHT. As my competition days are long gone (due to injuries), I try to focus on more practical and fundamental techniques. I enjoy watching the younger generation do the flashy techs and innovative styles. For me personally I believe any training is better than no training. Someone who only trains sport specific jiu jitsu would have a much better chance in the street agains someone who's never grappled. again, personally for me it boils down to what motivates people to get on the mats and learn.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
And, if I have to do longer shooting, I find that in North America at least, a Remington 700 30-06 bolt action with a decent scope, or a .308 bolt action with a scope, shoots better than I do, once the scope is properly sighted in, and is enough to get the job done.
LDBlack beltVerified
6 year(s) ago
I would rather talk about what firearms I admire, than which firearms I have, for a variety of reasons. I find the Glock 19, and P365 to be nice concealed carry pistols. I love ruger revolvers, especially in the caliber of .357 magnum.
Time for a new forum topic maybe . I love my Glock 19 gen 5 and my 43x. Enjoy my Sig P320 x-carry. But my new Colt Python 357 is so much fun.
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Hey Louis, are you watching out for the Glock 44 about to go to market?
It is a Glock 19 form factor, Glock factory made for .22LR.
Ammo $$$ at the range and all that.
It is a Glock 19 form factor, Glock factory made for .22LR.
Ammo $$$ at the range and all that.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
"I would rather talk about what firearms I admire"
So many firearms I admire that frankly I can't afford.
My main firearm is a Core Rifle Systems M4 Piston Operated AR. Got it because it wasn't too expensive.
Glock 19 Gen 4 is very nice. It is a restricted firearm here. I have a restricted license so I'm good in that regard.
I also love the Beretta M9A1.
Lever action (cowboy style) rifles have always had a place in my heart. At 45-70 govt it is a powerhouse of punch.
The Russian made SKS rifles are pretty damn amazing considering how old they are. They can take a beating and keep on shooting. Dirt, sand etc... no problem.
Actually all my Russian made stuff is pretty robust that way.
Up here you can't even say a firearm is for home defense or suffer confiscation. (Canada) Everyday there is more talk of a province wide outright ban on all firearms.
My main firearm is a Core Rifle Systems M4 Piston Operated AR. Got it because it wasn't too expensive.
Glock 19 Gen 4 is very nice. It is a restricted firearm here. I have a restricted license so I'm good in that regard.
I also love the Beretta M9A1.
Lever action (cowboy style) rifles have always had a place in my heart. At 45-70 govt it is a powerhouse of punch.
The Russian made SKS rifles are pretty damn amazing considering how old they are. They can take a beating and keep on shooting. Dirt, sand etc... no problem.
Actually all my Russian made stuff is pretty robust that way.
Up here you can't even say a firearm is for home defense or suffer confiscation. (Canada) Everyday there is more talk of a province wide outright ban on all firearms.
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Time for a new forum topic maybe . I love my Glock 19 gen 5 and my 43x. Enjoy my Sig P320 x-carry. But my new Colt Python 357 is so much fun.
I started one in the off topic forum
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
I love the idea of the 45-70,
But the pronounced rainbow trajectory,
combined with the expense, and local availability of the ammo,
makes me inclined to stick to 30-30, 44mag, 357 mag / 38 spl, and 22LR for my lever rifle shooting.
The 45-70 in my opinion, has a steeper learning curve, and expense, that end up getting multiplied against each other, than those other level calibers.
But the pronounced rainbow trajectory,
combined with the expense, and local availability of the ammo,
makes me inclined to stick to 30-30, 44mag, 357 mag / 38 spl, and 22LR for my lever rifle shooting.
The 45-70 in my opinion, has a steeper learning curve, and expense, that end up getting multiplied against each other, than those other level calibers.
Edited 6 year(s) ago
RDBlack belt 4th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
combined with the expense, and local availability of the ammo,
The ammo is ridiculously expensive up here as well.
I only shoot 5 rds at the range at any given visit to make sure I can still hit the mark and also to ensure its safe operation.
I pretty much have it all gussied up to look amazing and keep it in its sock in the safe.
Plus that bugger hurts like hell after 5 rds. :-)
I only shoot 5 rds at the range at any given visit to make sure I can still hit the mark and also to ensure its safe operation.
I pretty much have it all gussied up to look amazing and keep it in its sock in the safe.
Plus that bugger hurts like hell after 5 rds. :-)
WMBlack belt 5th degreeVerified
6 year(s) ago
Color me jealous.
I always wanted a Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70, despite my rhetoric to the contrary.
If I saw one, particularly new, I would probably buy it like a crack addict buys rock.
I always wanted a Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70, despite my rhetoric to the contrary.
If I saw one, particularly new, I would probably buy it like a crack addict buys rock.
