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Should wrestling and catch wrestling be accepted
1 month(s) ago • 847 views • 43 replies
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
There’s lots of back and fourth about this but something I’ve encountered while being here is seeing the lack of value given to catch wrestling and international styles of wrestling within this community. How can soo many blackbelts and other belts claim their wrestling history and knowledge and more without batting an eye. But when verifying history and experience but not with newer belts, why wouldn’t we use the original grappling art that helped in the creation of Bjj?
What’s your take on why catch and international styles of wrestling aren’t accepted?
https://www.scientificwre[...]zywJu7ZsZg
What’s your take on why catch and international styles of wrestling aren’t accepted?
https://www.scientificwre[...]zywJu7ZsZg
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
It's pretty simple. You're claiming wrestling (Greco, freestyle, whatever) is the SAME sport or martial art as BJJ, and pretty much everyone here disagrees. A catch wrestling website arguing that catch shaped BJJ isn't proof of anything, and even your own link says BJJ's root is Kodokan Judo. Judo and catch weren't the first to ever do an armlock either. You can find joint locks and wrestling stances painted in the Beni Hasan tombs in ancient Egypt, around 4,000 years ago. By your logic, learning a front headlock means you've been training every sport that uses one, since they were already being drawn on tomb walls.
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
No Isaac I’m not, I’m claiming my time in catch, bjj, and international styles as they were all trained at the same time. That’s the part you aren’t connecting. Also you do understand that catch influenced the judoka that created Bjj right? That’s one website among millions that show catch came before Bjj and helped to create it with its influence on judo….this is the issue I’m running into with traditionalists. And the people can disagree doesent mean that they’re right. Just like there’s a you and version of a limits but for some reason only the Bjj one is right🤔. This again proves what my leader and many other blackbelts have been saying. There isn’t a respect for both wrestling and catch wrestling in the Bjj community. Especially with the lack of understanding that catch had an influence on BJJ through judo.
Just say you don’t like wrestling and some guy blast doubled you and you never got over it. That’s more reasonable than the hate on catch wrestling and other international and national styles
Just say you don’t like wrestling and some guy blast doubled you and you never got over it. That’s more reasonable than the hate on catch wrestling and other international and national styles
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Lets be clear here. You understand the difference between the sport of wrestling, and the sport of jiu jitsu, and you are saying you practiced the sport of jiu jitsu in 1995?
KBBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
You really have a chip on your shoulder that makes no sense.
I even literally put on my own club's website that if history had gone differently, we'd call what we do catch wrestling instead of brazilian jiu jitsu.
yet I don't date my bjj white belt to my wrestling start date, and my students who have wrestling backgrounds wouldn't date their white belt date to their wrestling days decades ago, and if a judoka comes in and starts training bjj they won't date their white belt to when they started judo--and if someone from bjj starts judo, they should not date their judo training white belt origin date to when they started bjj.
I even literally put on my own club's website that if history had gone differently, we'd call what we do catch wrestling instead of brazilian jiu jitsu.
yet I don't date my bjj white belt to my wrestling start date, and my students who have wrestling backgrounds wouldn't date their white belt date to their wrestling days decades ago, and if a judoka comes in and starts training bjj they won't date their white belt to when they started judo--and if someone from bjj starts judo, they should not date their judo training white belt origin date to when they started bjj.
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Just say you don’t like wrestling and some guy blast doubled you and you never got over it. That’s more reasonable than the hate on catch wrestling and other international and national styles
I never hated on catch wrestling or any form of wrestling. I think wrestling is awesome. Your logic and facts about its relationship to BJJ are not awesome though.
Also, for the record, no one has ever blast doubled me - CAUSE IM A BUTT SCOOTER BABY!
Also, for the record, no one has ever blast doubled me - CAUSE IM A BUTT SCOOTER BABY!
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
lol fair enough on the butt scooter part. There’s just a lot getting devalued and misunderstood. And yes the judoka quite often reference their belts with their history and experience. I’ve seen this in many gyms. The wall I’m hitting with you is the same one wrestlers and catch athletes have been hitting with other Bjj only practitioners. Lack of respect for the art in its equivalency. That’s a big part of the issue. Traditionalists are making the community lean more towards that side. It’s been seen for years even down to the rules and some of the are and are not enforced in BJJ. I hope this hits a point better for you.
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
lol fair enough on the butt scooter part. There’s just a lot getting devalued and misunderstood. And yes the judoka quite often reference their belts with their history and experience. I’ve seen this in many gyms. The wall I’m hitting with you is the same one wrestlers and catch athletes have been hitting with other Bjj only practitioners. Lack of respect for the art in its equivalency. That’s a big part of the issue. Traditionalists are making the community lean more towards that side. It’s been seen for years even down to the rules and some of the are and are not enforced in BJJ. I hope this hits a point better for you.
So did you practice the sport of jiu jitsu in 1995? Also I think you are making a lot of accusations about what this community thinks of wrestlers rather than what they think of your attitude. While you were arguing with the community someone with a long wrestling background got verified as blue belt because they used an accurate white belt start date, with zero disputes. This really has very little to do with anyone hating wrestling and more to do with your attitude, the chip on your shoulder, and what you think this website is for. When you fill out your promotion history it literally shows a white belt and says "Date started training". What did you think that meant - the date you started training snowboarding? Does wrestling have white belts?
https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p?id=56610
https://www.beltchecker.c[...]p?id=56610
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
I don’t know what your definition or anyone’s definition of Bjj is anymore. I was practicing chokes and subs and takedowns and throws and more in 1995 and later. But for some reason this is not enough. I can’t speak to why the others chose to list their wrestling history and why others did not. But I only seem to get criticism from those who didn’t. There is no “chip” on my shoulder I’m simply stating what’s been seen in the community for years. And it’s just more public now. Attitude? There isn’t one. It’s a reaction to others stating your history and expierence don’t match just because someone else did it different and they don’t like it and othered did it the same way and agree with me. There shouldn’t be an issue at all.
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
I don’t know what your definition or anyone’s definition of Bjj is anymore. I was practicing chokes and subs and takedowns and throws and more in 1995 and later. But for some reason this is not enough. I can’t speak to why the others chose to list their wrestling history and why others did not. But I only seem to get criticism from those who didn’t. There is no “chip” on my shoulder I’m simply stating what’s been seen in the community for years. And it’s just more public now. Attitude? There isn’t one. It’s a reaction to others stating your history and expierence don’t match just because someone else did it different and they don’t like it and othered did it the same way and agree with me. There shouldn’t be an issue at all.
Again, submission locks have been around since ancient Egypt. Is your position that if someone learns a submission lock they are practicing Judo, BJJ, Sambo, and Catch simultaneously? Can you not differentiate a learned movement from a sport?
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
If someone learns how to choke control the body play from guard,takedown or throw a person it’s grappling. It’s not a learned movement and it sounds like you’re not able to make the distinction that I’m showing. If I’m grappling with a person and the aspect of the win is to choke or submit then yes that’s Bjj also that’s the definition for submission grappling
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
So again here’s submission grappling notice the key words here are ground fighting submissions without strikes? Both are Bjj and catch and wrestling.
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
If someone learns how to choke control the body play from guard,takedown or throw a person it’s grappling. It’s not a learned movement and it sounds like you’re not able to make the distinction that I’m showing. If I’m grappling with a person and the aspect of the win is to choke or submit then yes that’s Bjj also that’s the definition for submission grappling
That's flawed logic. An armbar can win a BJJ match, that doesn't mean someone who learns an armbar is doing BJJ. An armbar can also win a Sambo match, and a Judo match. Which sport are they doing depends on the rules governing that sport. I am quite sure you are able to differentiate these sports and you are just being stubborn.
CMBlue beltVerified
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Look at that. These people definitions seems to have almost the same verbiage🤔
A.I. definitions are not a source of authority.
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Its all doing the same “movement” it’s the same thing. Same candy bar different wrapper. This debate has been going on in the community for years and this convo shows this.
RLBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Chance, I have to say, I don't understand why you're struggling so much with the elements that people have pointed out and made mention of with your White Belt Start date.
The site, that we're on, is for BJJ Belt Checking: so white belt when you started the sport/art of BJJ -- was that a year or two before you got your BJJ Blue Belt awarded? then that would be your "Start Date for BJJ"?
You are a lifetime grappler/wrestler, decorated, experienced, and you have a lot to share -- wrestling/grappling in all forms is highly valued, and respected -- the note you have on your "about" covers the details and is fitting to show HOW MUCH experience you have across grappling/wrestling overall... but the purpose of the White belt start date is when you "Started BJJ" SPECIFICALLY; it would be different if the start date was one for "Any Grappling" but then that would be "Experience Checker" not "Belt Checker" right?
I think the approach expected, specifically for this website and the usage, and how I would use it in your example would just be something like this ..."> Experienced life-time wrestler/grappler, starting in 1995 when I was 5 years old, I have a wealth of experience in the grappling arts, and I officially started in BJJ when I walked into <Academy> in the year <20/## or 2020?> and was promoted to Blue Belt off the back of my lifetime of grappling across various arts, I bring these all together in my training and love to share these with people"
And your BJJ White Belt start date is when you actually started in BJJ at a BJJ gym or were training BJJ specifically from a BJJ instructor
The site, that we're on, is for BJJ Belt Checking: so white belt when you started the sport/art of BJJ -- was that a year or two before you got your BJJ Blue Belt awarded? then that would be your "Start Date for BJJ"?
You are a lifetime grappler/wrestler, decorated, experienced, and you have a lot to share -- wrestling/grappling in all forms is highly valued, and respected -- the note you have on your "about" covers the details and is fitting to show HOW MUCH experience you have across grappling/wrestling overall... but the purpose of the White belt start date is when you "Started BJJ" SPECIFICALLY; it would be different if the start date was one for "Any Grappling" but then that would be "Experience Checker" not "Belt Checker" right?
I think the approach expected, specifically for this website and the usage, and how I would use it in your example would just be something like this ..."> Experienced life-time wrestler/grappler, starting in 1995 when I was 5 years old, I have a wealth of experience in the grappling arts, and I officially started in BJJ when I walked into <Academy> in the year <20/## or 2020?> and was promoted to Blue Belt off the back of my lifetime of grappling across various arts, I bring these all together in my training and love to share these with people"
And your BJJ White Belt start date is when you actually started in BJJ at a BJJ gym or were training BJJ specifically from a BJJ instructor
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Isaac there’s Webster too you can also see it’s similar there
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Chance. You came to a website called BELTchecker, that clearly asked you when you put on your white belt, with a beginning date. You admitted wrestling doesn't have white belts. Then when someone votes for you they are asked specifically if your "BELT history are complete, accurate and verifiable". And when someone disputes you, your response is that everyone hates wrestling. So tell everyone when you put on your jiu jitsu white belt because that's what this website is asking. If you don't like that, then why exactly are you here.
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Rowan I think you’re trying to approach this in a way that can solve but wheat piece you’re missing is that I started doing all of this at the same time! Chokes subs pins throws guardplay in 1995. And beyond but that’s not being accepted just because some people claim their wrestling history and others don’t. This is the traditionalist issue. The “Academy” was a large barn full of practitioners of many arts that taught all of us at the same time. So again everything I’ve stated is true and correct. Some just don’t like that they did it different. There’s even others on this site and that voted for me that did claim their wrestling history and are verified blackbelts.
And that’s the actual issue. Others have done it some have not and the ones that didn’t are more upset. So it doesent matter what I say or how many videos or photos I produce this community seems to want to not accept my history because it’s not traditional.
And that’s the actual issue. Others have done it some have not and the ones that didn’t are more upset. So it doesent matter what I say or how many videos or photos I produce this community seems to want to not accept my history because it’s not traditional.
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Isaac the question asked when did you start training and I honestly started training in grappling in 1995 with a coach/leader/instructor no one wore belts or Gis we would switch from barefoot to shoes and switched styles based on what we were working. The small question you keep asking is when did I put on a white belt. I never did and neither did a lot of others that have their black belts. So again you want a verified history I’m giving it. It’s accepted by other blackbelts and my own students. This should only be an issue if I was claiming a black belt but I’m not. Even the IBJJF states that a collegiate wrestler with no white belt or white belt experience is entered in as a blue belt. It’s an attack on wrestling because the community doesent respect the value and knowledge and expierence wrestling brings hence why you rarely see a true wrestler as a blue belt and not a white belt at IBJJF competitions.
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
Isaac the question asked when did you start training
Yes. Under your WHITE BELT promotion history.
IBlack beltVerified
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
So you’re trying to not answer as to why IBJJF would make a wrestler with no white belt and no white belt belt experience a blue belt competitor. But you want to point to a belt and ask for the time. You do understand that people get belted without having a white belt right? Lots of blackbelts on here without that history.
But again you don’t want to accept these facts?
But again you don’t want to accept these facts?
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
So you’re trying to not answer as to why IBJJF would make a wrestler with no white belt and no white belt belt experience a blue belt competitor. But you want to point to a belt and ask for the time. You do understand that people get belted without having a white belt right? Lots of blackbelts on here without that history. But again you don’t want to accept these facts?
This isn't the IBJJF and that's irrelevant. Show me a black belt on Beltchecker that has never put on a white belt.
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
I just dismantled your entire argument. Plus the regulation has been adopted into other promotions so yea it’s very relevant. Plus the ADCC Does the same thing! So your entire argument has no legs!
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
ADCC also shows this as well. You see now where your argument is null? Wrestlers don’t have to get a white belt per the 2 biggest promotions
IBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
I just dismantled your entire argument. Plus the regulation has been adopted into other promotions so yea it’s very relevant. Plus the ADCC Does the same thing! So your entire argument has no legs!
I don't think you have been reading my argument then. I have no idea what that screenshot is. But you know that that Beltchecker is not the IBJJF right? It's specifically an alternative to IBJJF. We are talking about THIS WEBSITE.
CMBlue beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
IBJJF and ADCC and JJWL and other promotions have the same or similar rule. This shows even at the competition level wrestlers don’t get white belts. So then if we’re not adhearing to the rules of the promotions that we compete in the art at. Then it’s who ever makes up a rule we like. If the 3 most prominent promotions rules can’t be trusted then are we supposed to just trust you? I think not, below is an JJWL screenshot of the rule above is the ADCC and IBJJF. All having the same or similar verbiage. So again your argument has no legs.
RLBlack beltVerified
1 month(s) ago
I just dismantled your entire argument. Plus the regulation has been adopted into other promotions so yea it’s very relevant. Plus the ADCC Does the same thing! So your entire argument has no legs!
I get what you are saying, but this isn't about how you'd register in division for compete or how varied and wide grappling experience places you in the Expert and or Black Belt divisions.
Chance, It's just a simple question on your BJJ White Belt start date, and that could be the exact same as your Blue belt start date (minus 3 months) if you graded straight to Blue Belt after 3 months of Training at the BJJ Academy you were promoted at as that would show your life-time of experience being reflected.
You acknowledge as well that some people seem to have listed their Wrestling experience as their BJJ White Belt Start dates, but each person continues to say that would not be acceptable under the purpose of the site for "BJJ White Belt Start Training Date" field input, and I'd agree.
As an example, I started Judo when I was 6, but I don't put that as my "BJJ White Belt start Date"; I then started BJJ specifically in 2005 but stopped after 9 months, and then started again 4 years later in 2009, and I set 2009 as my BJJ White Belt start date as I was committed to continue training from then -- it felt better reflective of my commitment to BJJ progression rather than just trying to capture "as long experience as possible" I could map on the experience section.
While I can understand you want to reflect your full experience here, the intention of the "BJJ White Belt Training Start Date" is specifically for that intention and for those statistics that the website leverages (that are really cool, as an aside).
I don't really understand why you don't want to just list when you first started training in BJJ specifically (prior to your awarded Blue Belt)?
Chance, It's just a simple question on your BJJ White Belt start date, and that could be the exact same as your Blue belt start date (minus 3 months) if you graded straight to Blue Belt after 3 months of Training at the BJJ Academy you were promoted at as that would show your life-time of experience being reflected.
You acknowledge as well that some people seem to have listed their Wrestling experience as their BJJ White Belt Start dates, but each person continues to say that would not be acceptable under the purpose of the site for "BJJ White Belt Start Training Date" field input, and I'd agree.
As an example, I started Judo when I was 6, but I don't put that as my "BJJ White Belt start Date"; I then started BJJ specifically in 2005 but stopped after 9 months, and then started again 4 years later in 2009, and I set 2009 as my BJJ White Belt start date as I was committed to continue training from then -- it felt better reflective of my commitment to BJJ progression rather than just trying to capture "as long experience as possible" I could map on the experience section.
While I can understand you want to reflect your full experience here, the intention of the "BJJ White Belt Training Start Date" is specifically for that intention and for those statistics that the website leverages (that are really cool, as an aside).
I don't really understand why you don't want to just list when you first started training in BJJ specifically (prior to your awarded Blue Belt)?
